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chengrob

Pledge of Allegiance Under Attack

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As far as "god" goes, god isnt merely something we dont understand, its something that cant exist, it's unpheasable for something so spectacular, so perfect to exist.

I'm perfect but I exist :P

 

:mrgreen:

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As far as "god" goes, god isnt merely something we dont understand, its something that cant exist, it's unpheasable for something so spectacular, so perfect to exist.

perfect? Why must a god be perfect?

 

The funny thing about what you have said is that its been said so many times about so many things its almost silly.

 

I actually feel bad for you, that you cant fathom the existance of the amazing. Im not even a god fairing individual. At best you can call me agnostic, though I believe in the unbelievable, the unreasonable and the impossible. Those things are part of this countries and mans foundation and success.

Edited by one2gamble

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Nature in many cases is supernatural because people cant or dont understand what causes the changes in weather etc. Worship towards mother earth or nature is still a greater power not much different that the christian definition of "god" in that their lives are dependant upon something they cannot control.

I see what you are after, but I see nature and supernatural as a contradiction. Something is not supernatural merely because it is not understood. That is however the explanation that many employ for that which they do not understand.

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IMHO supernatural is simply a way of addressing natural events that are not understood. A person from midevil times would consider a light switch a supernatural phenomenon.

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perfect? Why must a god be perfect?

 

The funny thing about what you have said is that its been said so many times about so many things its almost silly.

 

I actually feel bad for you, that you cant fathom the existance of the amazing. Im not even a god fairing individual. At best you can call me agnostic, though I believe in the unbelievable, the unreasonable and the impossible. Those things are part of this countries and mans foundation and success.

Personally, I think that nature is much more spectacular than anything proposed that is supernatural.

 

Supernatural: "Let there be light."

 

Natural: The amazing intricacies of stars, solar systems, and galaxies....from the largest spiral down to the smallest subatomic particles I find the beauty of it all overwhelming. Add to that the wonders of life and biodiversity as well as all the other workings of nature all working in concert and I think that anything so plain as the supernatural pales in comparison.

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IMHO supernatural is simply a way of addressing natural events that are not understood. A person from midevil times would consider a light switch a supernatural phenomenon.

Yes. But considering such a thing magical or supernatural is one thing. Speaking to it and expecting or hearing answers is another...attributing to it a sentience is yet another... considering it all powerful and the ultimate of all things yet another.....and finally, worshiping it is yet another thing.......

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Yes. But considering such a thing magical or supernatural is one thing. Speaking to it and expecting or hearing answers is another...attributing to it a sentience is yet another... considering it all powerful and the ultimate of all things yet another.....and finally, worshiping it is yet another thing.......

Faith...thats an important part here...and some of ya have very little.

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Faith...thats an important part here...and some of ya have very little.

And why do some say that as if it were a negative thing? If one has no faith in something that they believe does not exist then that is good. If one does have faith in something that they believe does not exist then...well...it would seem fruitless.

 

In any case; if one does not believe in something you cannot deride them for not having faith in that which they do not believe. Unless that is your nature of course.

 

Faith in a deity or the suprnatural is simply not important in life in my opinion. I have no such faith at all...not simply very little...but none.

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To be truly Official it would have to be a requirement to say it in the first place. I am proposing to let the people decide on their own how they want to say it or if they want to say it at all. Atheist need to get the corn cob out of their *&^ and quit trying to run everyone elses life also.

 

 

Um... I think you got it back wards. Its not atheists trying to run anyone's lives its theists doing it. They changed the pledge in the first place. They want a religious statement in government documents and creeds that have no bearing there. They have and are changing things into religious icons/motto's or creeds.

 

Who's trying to run who's life here? Atheists are not proposing a banning on the pledge, no one has even said this, at least, if those two words were dropped. If not, then yes it should be at least banned from everyday public schooling.

 

And sorry but not only have I and my kids experienced the teachers that force you to say the pledge, but also the ones that make you say those two words.

 

I had words with one and she just about got fired.

 

 

 

The main problem which a lot of people refuse to understand, is that this was all avoidable. If there was no tampering, there wouldn't be conflict in the first place.

 

And who did the tampering?

 

 

Faith in a deity or the suprnatural is simply not important in life in my opinion. I have no such faith at all...not simply very little...but none.

Exactly. Why is it so bad that we have no faith. And what bearing does any of that have on the subject at hand? Its exactly this attitude that causes a lot of the controversy atheists get riled up about. If we were simply left to live our lives without being so down trodden (or at least made to feel that way) there would be much more peace between us.

 

But when it feels like you are getting attacked from all directions by something you feel is wrong, and made out to be a fool for having a differing opinion, or made out to be a :filtered: only because you want fair treatment, of course there are going to be people making these headlines.

 

And if atheism is not a religion, then quit saying the government favors atheism. The government is atheism. It is blind only to the law, and that is the way it was meant to be. It seems like religious people (namely christians) think there is some sort of competition going on between atheism and christianity.

 

When atheists start putting up road signs saying how stupid and :filtered: you are for believing in god and christ or allah or whatever, then you can start complaining and saying we are trying to run your life.

 

Next time we walk into a church and tell you god doesn't exist, or when we print up bibles that have atheist graffiti all in it, telling you how stupid the religion is, or explaining the many faults and lies it contains etc... And pass these things out to everyone, including kids, with out asking parents or guardians permission, or sending out unsolicited fliers to stop religious actvities. Then you have a reason to gripe at us.

 

Until then, quit acting like we are the ones causing this.

 

Atheist need to get the corn cob out of their *&^ and quit trying to run everyone elses life also.

 

This statement really gets me. What happened to respecting others beliefs. In what way are atheists running anyone's life? :huh: Sounds like you didn't know it was a mirror when you noticed the cob... ;)

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"make you say" you can just mumble the words, when i was a kid i just moved my mouth. we stopped doing the pledge of allegiance around here after 6th grade.

 

seems the thread is starting to dwell into religion which sparks nothing but controversial arguemental like posts all of which is pointless since theres no magically worded post that will change someones opinions.

 

persoanlly i say drop the 2 words in it and be done with it already, its no big deal except to the religious zealots.

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Faith in a deity or the suprnatural is simply not important in life in my opinion. I have no such faith at all...not simply very little...but none.

I would say I'm not the most faithful person but I try to have faith in something because I think everyone should have faith in something. Whether you believe the universe started by itself or it was "created" I think it takes faith. I understand where you simply may just believe what is proven but I think when it breaks down to the beginning a little faith is needed for both point of views. I think faith is maybe the most interesting part of human attributes. I think faith itself and faith in a deity are too separate meanings of the word but it is not something we can't enjoy and use in our daily lives.

 

I have faith that I will wake up tomorrow morning and my legs will work.

 

Anyways, I wouldn't say I'm religious (agnostic?) but I am spiritual in the way I think everyone has a special energy to themselves and I feel it is evident in some people by their motivations and I think anyone despite their beliefs anybody can be spiritual in their own way. :)

 

I'm more of the live life and find your own path to spirituality or lack thereof. Whatever makes you happy. I think people should stop debating so much on whether or not something exists but instead believe what makes them happy. I'm not for forcing my beliefs on anybody. Therefore, the pledge doesn't bother me but I can see where some would want it out. Call me a turncoat.

Edited by The Dude

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I would say I'm not the most faithful person but I try to have faith in something because I think everyone should have faith in something. Whether you believe the universe started by itself or it was "created" I think it takes faith.

I said I have no faith in anything supernatural. For those things I do not know I truly believe there is no supernatural explanation.

 

I have faith in many things, simply none of them are supernatural.

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I said I have no faith in anything supernatural. For those things I do not know I truly believe there is no supernatural explanation.

 

I have faith in many things, simply none of them are supernatural.

Well, the hardest part for me was the fact that I realized I would probobly not see my two brothers again once it was my turn to heal over. That probobly made it hardest for me. I always look to the future with a sense of hope that maybe I will get that chance, whether that makes me a knowingly blissfully ignorant fool or a hopeful one.

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Um... I think you got it back wards. Its not atheists trying to run anyone's lives its theists doing it. They changed the pledge in the first place. They want a religious statement in government documents and creeds that have no bearing there. They have and are changing things into religious icons/motto's or creeds.

 

Who's trying to run who's life here? Atheists are not proposing a banning on the pledge, no one has even said this, at least, if those two words were dropped. If not, then yes it should be at least banned from everyday public schooling.

 

And sorry but not only have I and my kids experienced the teachers that force you to say the pledge, but also the ones that make you say those two words.

 

I had words with one and she just about got fired.

 

 

 

 

I agree many religous zealots are trying to force people to say under God also. Both the atheistic and religous zealots are wrong. Most people are not zealots and would not be opposed to a policy that you have the choice of saying under God or not. Also most people are not opposed to a public policy that allowed those who wished not to recite the pledge to abstain. No one has to lose on this issue, but the zealots whomever they are will not be happy unless they have it completely their way.

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Well, the hardest part for me was the fact that I realized I would probobly not see my two brothers again once it was my turn to heal over. That probobly made it hardest for me. I always look to the future with a sense of hope that maybe I will get that chance, whether that makes me a knowingly blissfully ignorant fool or a hopeful one.

For me I think such things make me cherish life even more and cherish the people around me even more. Since I feel there is nothing that is not here, I simply must make the most of what I have now. I simply must love intensely, live passionately, and do what I can here and now. As for missing the opportunity to reconnect with those we have lost later, well, make the most of what you have with them while they are here and cherish their memory when they are gone. For me it keeps them alive in some regard.

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I agree many religous zealots are trying to force people to say under God also. Both the atheistic and religous zealots are wrong. Most people are not zealots and would not be opposed to a policy that you have the choice of saying under God or not. Also most people are not opposed to a public policy that allowed those who wished not to recite the pledge to abstain. No one has to lose on this issue, but the zealots whomever they are will not be happy unless they have it completely their way.

I would tend to agree.

 

As far as the Pledge itself, I truly believe that anything official simply is contrary to the fundamentals of our nation if it contains the word God or even implies anything religious. I have no problem with people adding that if it comforts them in some way. I do have an issue with the fact that the phrase was in fact added to the Pledge. I think the times in which it was added speak loudly for the agenda that was addresses by the editing of the Pledge and we should put those dark times behind us in a proactive way.

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I can find a diety anywhere-- including making up my own version.

If I need a house of worship, there is one on every corner, no problem.

If I need to pledge to a flag, there is one on every important ediface, no problem.

If I need to ignore both flag and worship, for whatever reason, no problem.

If I choose one over the other, it is my business.

If I choose not to mix the two together, my government chooses for me, and that is wrong. Drop the God part from the pledge, and if you cannot find God any other way, I will find someone to take your hand and lead you to the nearest one...

 

:shifty::shifty:

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I don't mean to sound snobby, but this is America, all of our major religions contain a "God", if you don't like it then say it your way, or get the :filtered: out. Little kids don't even know that God = Christiananity, therefore saying "under god" during the pledge is hardly going to brainwash them.

 

Try going to Korea or the Middle East and telling them something of their's is incorrect and they will probably have you killed. Here in America we have freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean you should abuse it. :angry:

 

Bruce, I agree with you (I only read the first 3 pages btw so I might have missed a little) on the fact that god shouldn't have been put in the pledge, because it does imply that everyone is of a certain religion and I know that is not true, pick whatever religion you want, it's fine with me. However I think now that it's in there, and it's been there awhile I believe, why make such a big deal out of it? Everyone can't have everything their own way. If this man had his way (the crazy atheist who started this in the first place), every time someone said "oh my god" or "good lord" they would probably be arrested just because someone near by might not believe in god. :mrsgreen:

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I have no problem with God being in the pledge of allegiance. I have two rationales:

 

1. The separation of church and state was not meant to create a godless government. It was meant so that the state would not favor one religion over another. That is all religions are equal in the eyes of the government. I have said many times, that I do not believe that atheism qualifies as a relgion, much as fasting does not count as a form of eating. Therefore if you exclude atheism as a religion, there is no other religion that has a problem with the words Under God.

 

2. We are now trying to solve a problem that does not exist. The words are now in the pledge. What good will come from removing it? I can not think of much. There are much more important real issues, such as how our government deals with real disasters, a war against Al Qaeda that seem stuck in Iraq, and on and on. Let's focus on our real problems.

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if you don't like it then say it your way, or get the :filtered: out.

This is my favorite phrase in a discussion, you don't like it my way, then leave your own country. I sat through this statement three or four times during this discussion and remained silent; no longer, this is America and the last time I looked it was still supposed to be the land of the free with liberty and justice for all. Statements like this are out of line.

 

If someone doesn't like someone else's opinion then counter it with fact (or your own opinion) but do it respectfully or bite your tongue and bear with it because we are all entitled to our own opinion, this what freedom is all about.

 

chengrob, i respect your opinion but religion is nothing like eating. Eating is required to sustain your very physical existence, religion is a belief in something that can not be quantified and you can physically survive without it. Many people do live fruitful, productive and happy lives without religion. In essence religion is a personal choice in what you believe, a spiritual belief and choosing to not believe is definitely a spiritual belief. These are two sides of the same coin and like it or not not believing is a religious choice. Good try but in no way are they comparable.

 

Little kids don't even know that God = Christiananity, therefore saying "under god" during the pledge is hardly going to brainwash them.

And this why I choose to use the word "brainwashing" in my earlier post. Little children are impressionable empty vessels waiting to be filled and by mandating the inclusion of those words into what should be a secular Pledge, the government is telling them that God exists regardless of the parents wishes. They are exposed to this every single time that they hear the Pledge recited and they hear it each and every day that they are in school. When a trusted authority figure (and the child's friends) tells a child something often enough, the child will begin to believe. This undermines a parents rights to guide their children's spiritual development and also can undermine the child's trust and respect for their own parents.

 

When this governmental decree undermines a parents own beliefs and the spiritual training of the children in question in whether there is a God or not, I and many other other Americans believe that government has over stepped its Constitutional boundaries in the establishment clause. Like it or not the government declaring there is God is just as wrong to someone who does not believe as it would be if it declared that your own personal God was the wrong one and then had all the other children in your child's school recite this "fact" day in and day out as is happening now.

 

All Americans are entitled to their own spiritual beliefs, even those who do not believe. To deny that others beliefs do not deserve the same protections as your own is the first slippery step down a path that can lead to no other outcome than the loss of many peoples freedom and that is what this issue is all about.

Edited by Ronbo

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I pledge allegiance to the Flag

of the United States of America,

and to the Republic for which it stands:

one Nation under God, indivisible,

With Liberty and Justice for all.

 

 

 

I pledge allegiance to the Flag

of the United States of America,

and to the Republic for which it stands:

one Nation indivisible,

With Liberty and Justice for all.

 

 

Sounds fine to me either way... as long as ya mean it.

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My wife is a women's rights activist and she won't have anything to do with a deity that is commonly perceived as being male. She's got a point. Why should independent women pledge themselves under a male deity ?

 

The band of people to whom the Pledge is suitable is narrowing.

 

Edit; Sorry, v, you pipped me. I'd go with Pledge No.2. :)

Edited by moon

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My wife is a women's rights activist and she won't have anything to do with a deity that is commonly perceived as being male. She's got a point. Why should independent women pledge themselves under a male deity ?

 

God ain't male....no way.

 

 

I'v read the bible...that has to be a female a yakkin... :lol: v

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I've never given God a gender before, I'm not going to start now... :blink:

 

The pronouns used to describe Him are because of the way most languages defaulted to male terms in situations where gender is ambiguious, unkown, or unimportant. You don't want to go around calling God "It". :shrug:

 

 

 

 

...I gotta start smokin weed before I come here...

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