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Pledge of Allegiance Under Attack

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How can a god have made the world, it has already been proved that the big bang formed the universe over a vast period of time, not in 7 days as the bible says. Also, the theory of evolution, which has also been proved, contradicts the bible. IMO the bible is a mere story book from which people draw false hope and a false sense of security. I know i wont be able to change the minds of any religious people, because its too late...

 

you guys have already been "assimilated" :)

 

btw my last post, wasnt meant to turn into me discrediting religion, it started off as a vent of my anger at something stupid which was said by another member. :mrgreen:

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btw my last post, wasnt meant to turn into me discrediting religion, it started off as a vent of my anger at something stupid which was said by another member. :mrgreen:

Ahh well I say stupid stuff all the time around here...folks are used to it... :lol: v

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Sorry but I don't believe in the theory of evolution as it applies to humans. A few questions:

 

1. If it has already been proved, why do they still call it a theory?

2. If it is true for humans and apes, then why are they any apes at all? Isn't the theory, that man evolved from apes, because genetically man can better survive in its environment?

3. What about the missing link? If things are still evolving in the "Origin of the Species" then wouldn't there be a continuum of man-apes?

 

I am still glad that I learned about the theory because it applies in many other situations, particularly in business.

 

I almost had to laugh when someone says that they have figured out the origin of the universe. No one has proved the Big Bang Theory.

 

On the other comments.

 

Religion is about believing and faith. No one can prove if there is a God or not a God while we are living on this earth. If you believe, the reckoning happens when you die. The people that founded America were religious people, and they escaped to America due to religious persecution. These are some of the basic reasons why our constitution affords us broader rights on freedom of religion, and also limits the rights of the goverment can play in religion. But none of this denies the fact that our founding fathers were relgious men.

 

Sorry, I do not consider atheism a religion, and I do not consider fasting a form of dining. We need to come to grips with the fact that atheists are not religious people and the constitutional principles afforded to religious people should not be afforded to atheists. That said, I never said, nor will I ever say, that if you don't like it, then you should leave the US. Part of our country is our ability to have intelligent and lively discourse.

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I still want someone to answer to me , if not under God, Then under WHO????

How about "Under Seige"...

 

Definition of Atheism: a non-prophet organization.

 

Blessed are the Fundamentalists, for they shall inhibit the earth.

Edited by thehulk18

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There is no inherent contradiction between man and ape existing contemporaneously. Evolutionary theory does not postulate that the process results in a single life form that is so perfectly adapted that it exists in all environments and is so superior that other life forms are extinguished due to inability to compete. To suggest that that because man and ape are closely linked in the evolutionary tree demonstrates that evolution is wrong is the equivalent of arguing that no other plant or animal form can exist because man has adapted better than all other life forms.

 

It may well be that man is evolving to a point where through his ability to modify the environment he can compete successfully in all environments and could destroy other species. In fact weren't the gorillas in danger of extinction due to loss of habitat (from mans encroachment). Perhaps we should go back to hunting gorillas and destroying their habitat so that we can demonstrate the fallacy of the argument that because man and ape coexist man could not have evolved from ape.

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some god had to have a hand in this world were dealing with now...

I disagree with the concept behind that statement. I don't think any god had any hand in the evolution of this world or the creatures that abide on it, including us humans. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

 

When I was growing up, we recited the Pledge Of Allegience in grade school, never thought a thing about it. I still don't think it's that big of a deal and I'm agnostic. Just leave well enough alone. Jeez, everyone acts like their whole world is gonna fall apart if they say those two words. Get over it... :rolleyes: -kd5-

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When I was growing up, we recited the Pledge Of Allegience in grade school, never thought a thing about it. I still don't think it's that big of a deal and I'm agnostic. Just leave well enough alone. Jeez, everyone acts like their whole world is gonna fall apart if they say those two words. Get over it...  -kd5

That's a nice laid-back live and let live attitude which I have shared until quite recently. Suddenly, those that are dissatisfied with the seperation of church and state are attempting to force issues which go against the grain of laid back live and let live people. 'Gods' are private matters and they'd do well not to awaken the Kraken. Sail easy.

 

 

 

 

 

,

Edited by moon

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I love how scientists in the 1800's came up with evolution but the Bible taught it first...

 

http://www.answersincreation.org/evolution_bible.htm

 

How did the human ear evolve? Did evolution know sound waves existed and that it could coordinate with the brain to interpret sound. Did evolution know if it made eyes it could see light it had no way of knowing it existed. Complete chaos does not equal order.

 

Evolution if it is true is blind. I don't think humans would be so amazingly adapted to the universe. We can interract with the matter, see it, smell it, touch it, taste it and hear it. If this was an atheistic universe why is there something instead of nothing? Why are there stars and light. How did a complete random explosion form everything we see?

 

I was a doubter for a few years, in fact, I thought religion was bull. But I realized I had more questions than answers without faith. If anything in this universe were slightly off, matter wouldn't even exist and I'm talking 10^56 powers of probability and everything works like a puzzle. It's like blowing a bomb up in a junk yard and coming out with an assembled and painted 747 jumbo jet ready for takeoff.

 

For me, it took more faith to be an atheist than a Christian.

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencebible.html

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/spiritual.html

 

As for me, I don't think a pinhead explosion without the help of a creator could form the universe, the stars, the earth, life and eventually the most advanced organic organ in the universe, my brain.

 

The bible has been twisted by the churches. Research online and you will find the bible does not mean a literal 7 days. It uses "omen" in the original translation which is different than the words use they actually use later on to mean a 24 hour period.

 

Charles Darwin had doubts about evolution:

 

Another criticism of his theory, however, gave Darwin more difficulty.  Critics saw little chance that complicated organs such as the eye could have emerged gradually.  They must, it was believed, be the work of an intelligent designer.  Even Darwin admitted doubts.  He wrote, “It seems, I freely confess, absurd to the highest possible degree” that natural selection could produce such organs gradually.  (BB, 390)  (Decades later, evolutionary biologists would take up the challenge, and would attempt to trace the evolution of the eye.  They would point out, for example, that the human eye shares many “quirky vestiges of extinct ancestors, such as a retina that appears to have been installed backwards.”)  (SP,51)

In Origin of Species, Darwin kept his focus on explaining how new species emerged over time.  He carefully avoided any discussion of the origin of humans.  In 1871, however, Darwin made the connections between apes and humans explicit when, in 1871, he published his second great work on evolution, The Descent of Man.  Darwin argued that his theory could account for the emergence of a species capable of self-conscious thought.  To his critics, Darwin robbed man of his special place in the universe—and they saw the implications as profoundly troubling.  Man was the product of too much randomness—our chances of being on this planet remote in the extreme.  If the universe were replayed a billion times, in none of those replays would humans likely have emerged.  A single break anywhere on the long chain that led to us—and there have been several periods of mass extinctions—and there would have been no human history.

Edited by The Dude

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Yes OK, so the complete formation of the universe from an explosion is VERY unlikely but it IS possible, more so than the existance of a god which can know all, see all and love all. There is evidence that the big bang happened, but there is no evidence, nor will there everbe any evidence that god (or any other deity) exists, therefore, i lean towards the side that has evidence and is plausable.

 

Look at it this way, the universe (including the human being) is not perfect. If it was created by an all knowing god, it would be. Why would god make so many mistakes if he was all knowing?, the existance of evil and suffering also pee on the bonfire of the idea that god exists. If he's all loving and all powerful, then evil and suffering cant exist. Either he doesnt love us :mrsgreen: , or he isnt powerful to stop such things existing. Alot of people in my family are religious and they say "the devil causes evil" but if that's the case, then why doesn't god destroy the devil?, if he was all powerful, all loving and all knowing he would do.

 

As far as the theory of evolution is concerned, yes it has it's flaws, but many less flaws than the theory of creation. Also, evolution doesn't "see the world", then simply pick and choose the perfect features for its host organism. It works via natural selection-the survival of the fittest. This however, does throw up the questions of how did the eye form gradually through natural selection? (as your quotes said) and the answer is, we dont know. But still, as is the case with the big bang vs. the creation theory, there is much more evidence for the theory of evolution than the idea that we were created by some perfect, higher being.

 

I dont beleive that science has all the answers and that we have proved that god doesnt exist, because we haven't. But there is far more evidence in favour of atheist beliefs than there is for christian belief (or any religion for that matter).

 

Thats antother thing. All the religions cant be right, because their beliefs are contradictory, so at least all but one must be wrong. I am not completely and utterly an atheist. I believe that there is some slight chance that there may be a higher power, but not god as he is described by religion. The only reason i think that there may be a higher power is because of this simple question...

 

Where do we go when we die? We dont know. It would be childish to believe that we go to some perfect place where we can live eternally. But it would be irrisponsable to believe that when we die, we are dead and we are nothing more, because we dont know, and we cant find out, so we should just wait and see, and not think about-or care about what happens to us when we die.

Edited by Typhoontom

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Where do we go when we die?

As I see it, either our lifeforce is freed to join the energy of the universe, or our lifeforce ceases to exist, the candle wick.....snuffed. Kinda torn on that one, but the concept of heaven & hell doesn't sit well with me at all, seems very fairy-talish to me (kinda like the concept of a freed lifeforce I guess).

 

Even so, I prefer one or the other in what I said above, to any concept of heaven & hell. -kd5-

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Yes OK, so the complete formation of the universe from an explosion is VERY unlikely but it IS possible, more so than the existance of a god which can know all, see all and love all. There is evidence that the big bang happened, but there is no evidence, nor will there everbe any evidence that god (or any other deity) exists, therefore, i lean towards the side that has evidence and is plausable.

 

Precisely, looking for a God in our universe is futile because he doesn't exist in our universe but since he is not constrained by the dimensions of it he is free to interract when it wants..

 

Look at it this way, the universe (including the human being) is not perfect. If it was created by an all knowing god, it would be. Why would god make so many mistakes if he was all knowing?, the existance of evil and suffering also pee on the bonfire of the idea that god exists. If he's all loving and all powerful, then evil and suffering cant exist. Either he doesnt love us icon_mrsgreen.gif , or he isnt powerful to stop such things existing. Alot of people in my family are religious and they say "the devil causes evil" but if that's the case, then why doesn't god destroy the devil?, if he was all powerful, all loving and all knowing he would do.

He didn't mistakes. Humans did. He gave us with free-will to love him because it would be immoral to force his creation to love be perfect because forcing us to love him is not love. Evil and suffering can exist in our universe, where he is not present. He decides not to end evil because if he ended it he would be imposing on the free-will of man to kill and do horrible things. He will punish or reward those according to their works. The Bible reitterates the evil and wicked will not go without notice. God exists out of the dimensions of the universe. He cannot be inside his creation. Why doesn't he destory evil? He will, once he closes the curtain on the world. Evil is necessary to grow and gain morality. Nobody learns patience, kindness and love in a perfect world. You touch a hot stove and you're not going to touch it again.... He leaves the universe as it is because it feels it is the best environment for humans to gain salvation.

 

The clay should not ask the potter why it formed it this or that way for it was formed the way the designer saw fit.

 

 

I dont beleive that science has all the answers and that we have proved that god doesnt exist, because we haven't. But there is far more evidence in favour of atheist beliefs than there is for christian belief (or any religion for that matter).

Science is not proof there is no God. Science is apathetic to anything. Science is the "building-blocks" of the universe or the laws and matter that govern it. It doesn't have a purpose nor does it provide evidence for anything. We don't have models of what a theistic universe looks like vs an atheistic one.

 

Thats antother thing. All the religions cant be right, because their beliefs are contradictory, so at least all but one must be wrong. I am not completely and utterly an atheist. I believe that there is some slight chance that there may be a higher power, but not god as he is described by religion. The only reason i think that there may be a higher power is because of this simple question...

That is a topic that we simply don't know. Some believe all religions lead to one God , while some believe there is a correct one.

 

Where do we go when we die? We dont know. It would be childish to believe that we go to some perfect place where we can live eternally. But it would be irrisponsable to believe that when we die, we are dead and we are nothing more, because we dont know, and we cant find out, so we should just wait and see, and not think about-or care about what happens to us when we die.

I believe we die and become maggot food. However, the bible is clear we have a soul and when we are not constrained and part of the universe anymore we are able to leave it and enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

This is the best source I've found for an explanation of what this "God" is.

 

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Flatland.html

 

I tried not to refer to God as "He" but it is a habbit I'm working on. :mrgreen:

 

As I see it, either our lifeforce is freed to join the energy of the universe, or our lifeforce ceases to exist, the candle wick.....snuffed. Kinda torn on that one, but the concept of heaven & hell doesn't sit well with me at all, seems very fairy-talish to me (kinda like the concept of a freed lifeforce I guess).

 

Even so, I prefer one or the other in what I said above, to any concept of heaven & hell. -kd5-

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html

Edited by The Dude

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Neo says... "yawn"

 

I'm not gonna read this whole thread so I'm just gonna make some quick statements. They will be very blunt - don't read this post if you like your posts with sugar on top.

 

The notion that people who don't agree with something should get out of the country is downright ridiculous. This is *says slowly* A-Mer-I-Ca. We're 'supposed' to be about cramming as many different beliefs and ideas in the space we got and swirling things around until something good pops out, we're NOT supposed to be about kicking people out of the country because we don't agree with them. Freedom of speech, thought, etc. - it's not a very difficult concept. :rolleyes:

 

Because of seperation of church and state, that line really doesn't belong in the pledge of allegiance. God should not be referenced at all when it comes to governing bodies, government documents, legal tender, etc. It only makes sense in a country with more systems of (dis)belief than I'd like to try to count.

 

As for anybody upset about other people having beliefs... I won't force my religion on you, don't force your lack thereof on me.

 

I'll explain a few things though...

Without evil, good would mean nothing - you wouldn't appreciate being happy if you were never sad. A perfect world were everything were perfect would be INCREDIBLY boring. I want no parts of that, thank you very much. Half of the fun of living is picking yourself up after you fall down and going right on about your business.

 

The 7 days described in the Bible may not have been "7 days" literally. The Bible was not written by God, it was written by humans. We are not perfect, therefore the Bible is not perfect.

 

Why do people have such a hard time accepting the fact that both evolution and God may have had a hand in our current form? It's all or nothing with people for some reason. If you take the story of our creation from the Bible in more of a metaphorical sense than a literal one, it essentially described what happened.

 

I'm gonna go pick my nose now, probably something more interesting up there than this overdone argument.

 

:snooze:

Edited by Neo X1

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The theory of evolution and the theory of intelligent design are both theories and should be taught equally in schools. I believe some states are beggining to follow suit. We need to teach children to think for themselves and make their own educated decisions about subjects like this. You know you cant believe everything you learn in school.

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I beg to differ. Evolution was theory but we can now say that 'evolution is the process by which populations of organisms acquire and pass on novel traits from generation to generation'

 

'Intelligent design' is 'creationism' in a mask.

 

 

 

 

,

Edited by moon

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I beg to differ. Evolution was theory but we can now say that 'evolution is the process by which populations of organisms acquire and pass on novel traits from generation to generation'

 

'Intelligent design' is 'creationism' in a mask.

I agree moon but, the question is if evolution is what got us here in the first place and if we were created totally by the process of "evolution." Micro evolution has been proven but not Macro evolution. I don't believe scientists have been able to create life from chemicals yet. If they can't force chemicals to make life I don't think the earth in it's soupy history was able to have life crawl out of the waste pools.

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Well we don't have to include all that in the pledge do we? I say put it back to the way it was written like Bruce suggested. Then someone start up a Fund so we can start the Bruceocratic Party. I'll vote for him but I need to see who he's running with. :P

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I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I was brainwashed as a child!!!!!!

 

 

Them mother:filtered: are going to PAY!!!!!!!!! :nuke:

:rofl2:

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I'll vote for him but I need to see who he's running with.

I've a feeling nobody's ever going to find out who he's running with. :lol:

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OK I am a little confused.

 

"There has to be intelligent design because humans can see "visible" light." Doesn't that mean we should be able to hear radio waves, see in X-Ray, UV, Infra-Red ? Those bands exist. As far as we know other animals can use some of this spectra but X-Rays are not used by any animals or plants to sense their environment. Wouldn't X-Ray sensors be an intelligent design feature? Wouldn't it keep people from living in Uranium mines? Not to mention how helpful it would be to hunt pray by seeing through trees. Reckon why an intelligent designer would blind some animals (moles come to mind) and put eye balls on them.

 

Now as I understood the bible neither Adam nor Eve had pencils and paper nor clay tablets to write down their early history. Maybe they didn't get everything recorded. Maybe the original version (just like Moses' tablets) went missing and this bible is just a collection of old guesses and approximations. Does that mean we should rely upon it as God's revealed word? Why were there more than one creation story in the old testament until they decided upon a single version? Was God confused about how the world was created?

 

If our world is a product of intelligent design what happened to the dinosaurs? Was that a mistake? Or were there no dinosaurs and the fossils are some big joke to keep us guessing?

 

I am afraid intelligent design (a hypothesis with little support) is not a scientific theory and therefor shouldn't be taught in science class. A theory requires testability. Which part of intelligent design can be tested?

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I am afraid intelligent design (a hypothesis with little support) is not a scientific theory and therefor shouldn't be taught in science class. A theory requires testability. Which part of intelligent design can be tested?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

 

- Albert Einstein

 

 

How can science be intelligent? We have no way of knowing if it was designed or created by some astronomically extroadinarilly almost impossibly rare to the 58th power probability. :P

 

Perhaps God did not want to impose on man's free will to decide for himself therefore not making too much evidence for his existance. Just remember, the laws that apply to us do not apply to anything outside them. Something that seems rediculous and impossible in our world may not be rediculous out of the dimensions of it.

 

Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

 

Many may think the idea of a God is rediculous. I think an infintely small and infinitely dense point of matter that somehow simply existed from nothing exploding to release pressure and creating this universe and all we know along with laws to govern the universe with such precision leading to the existance of mankind and me typing this right now by blind chance is even more rediculous.

 

I can stare at a computer and know it was manufactured and created. I don't sit in a psychology class and learn about how the human brain works with a trillion nuerons and think, wow, even though it is 10 billion times more advanced and powerful than a supercomputer it was created by pure chance and some funky accident.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe

Edited by The Dude

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