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chengrob

Pledge of Allegiance Under Attack

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Ahh we'll do what we always do in this country...let John Roberts and company decide it all for us...

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if a poll was passed things wouldnt change, if we voted on it things wouldnt change, if a judge decides would be then what, all heck will break loose

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i have no problem with "under God" in the pledge and I am Christian. my friend on the other hand doesn't believe and he simply does not say any of the pledge at all. Nobody minds it is his choice, he doesn't have to say anything and thats exactly what he does. hes not less of a person for not saying the pledge.

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I think it sad, that a person would not say the pledge. It really is sad that a person should have to choose between saying it and not saying it.

 

Wouldn't it be really cool if everyone could say it, without having to even think about it.

 

Return it to it's "original" state, and all Americans can pledge their allegiance without feeling like they have to compromise.

 

Just imagine a country so free, equal that every citizen could participate..........without reservation.

Edited by Bruce

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I think it sad, that a person would not say the pledge. It really is sad that a person should have to choose between saying it and not saying it.

 

Wouldn't it be really cool if everyone could say it, without having to even think about it.

 

Return it to it's "original" state, and all Americans can pledge their allegiance without feeling like they have to compromise.

I don't compromise on values Bruce...

 

Sad its come to this tho... my gods never hurt anyone.

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I see, so your values are the ones that "everyone" must abide by. ;)

 

Now we get to the meat of why such things are added to begin with, it is about you will believe in what I believe in................. :P

 

Exactly the very thing that must be avoided, and the very reason, the constitution has protections from such written into it.

 

Obviously you expect others to compromise and accept your values.

Edited by Bruce

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Let's change it to: One nation, under court order.... :shifty:

 

 

Jeez, we have one goob,who already failed once, stirring up trouble for no good reason. He must like being on the news. :erm:

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I see, so your values are the ones that "everyone" must abide by. ;)

 

Now we get to the meat of why such things are added to begin with, it is about you will believe in what I believe in................. :P

 

Exactly the very thing that must be avoided, and the very reason, the constitution has protections from such written into it.

 

Obviously you expect others to compromise and accept your values.

Well now have you ever known me to be wrong?? :lol:

 

Lets agree to disagree on this one Bruce... :P v

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Let's change it to: One nation, under court order.... :shifty:

 

 

Jeez, we have one goob,who already failed once, stirring up trouble for no good reason. He must like being on the news. :erm:

Lets not change it at all, it shouldn't have been changed in the first place. So just revert it to the way it was written.

 

It should have been left as the author intended it to be.

 

Wouldn't be in the courts, if the Catholics left their religious beliefs out of it.

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Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

 

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

 

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

 

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

 

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

 

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

 

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

 

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

 

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

 

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

 

    It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

 

    The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

 

    Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

 

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

 

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

 

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

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If you use godly money to buy witchcraft supplies, does it alter the quality of the spells??

 

Remember ---- altering the pledge was an act of congress!!

 

:woot:

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If you use godly money to buy witchcraft supplies, does it alter the quality of the spells??

 

Remember ---- altering the pledge was an act of congress!!

 

:woot:

Yes it was, and they can write anythng they want.

 

However the fact remains that forcing children to recite it in school is and should be unconstitutional. ;)

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wouldnt god mean many gods, also if the child didnt believe in god how would this be? considering age, are they old enough to understand what a god is, also if they did would it be a serious impact in there lives, when saying the plegde as a child the word god wasnt even important, nor anything else that was said, i was a child that did what all else was doing, only because i didnt want to be left out, or just because all else was doing it, i had no idea why there were children that that didnt do it, meaning they were the same age as me, you would think they didnt know iether, i believe they didnt know and were told not to participate, growing up as an american gave me choices on religion and my parents had no say because im american

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Just so we can stop beating this irrelevant "In God We Trust" issue to death, it was not placed on our money until 1864. The founding fathers did not put this on our money either, it was self serving individuals nearly a century after the country's founding that did this.

 

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets...-we-trust.shtml

 

As to the pledge and allowing children to make up their own minds, there is an old saying, "if you say something enough, people will start to believe it." By subjecting children to the "fact" that our nation is "under god" you are influencing their beliefs. This is no more than a subtle form of brainwashing folks, sitting down and not saying the pledge just isolates these children from their peer groups, it puts pressure on them to conform and it interferes with a parents right to raise their own children. When it comes time to "choose" these children have already been subjected to years of indoctrination and peer pressure to the "fact" that there is a god. Where is a persons right to raise their own family to pursue their own religion (or lack of) there?

 

Bruce has already made a pretty good argument about this issue and I cannot not understand why people cannot see the validity of the issue here. Pledging allegiance to your country should not involve acknowledging that your country is under a Deity or Deities. These are two separate issues and should remain that way unless you ultimately want to see our country go the way Iraq appears to be headed right now, a civil war based on religious principles.

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Yes it was, and they can write anythng they want.

 

However the fact remains that forcing children to recite it in school is and should be unconstitutional. ;)

when we recite it in school, i don't..lol

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Here's my analogy. Atheism is to Religion as Fasting is to Eating. The Constitution gives broad rights and privileges to allow anyone to freely practice their religion of their choosing. But I do not believe that the framers were considering Atheism a religion. And therefore, these Constitutional rights do not apply to Atheists. Flatly said, Atheism is not a religion.

 

The words "Under God" in the pledge were chosen not to favor any religion over another. If they had chosen, Under Christ, or Under Allah, or Under Yahwey, I believe that would have been unconstitutional. But the words Under God, only upset those who don't believe in God, and I don't believe that they should be viewed as a religion.

 

By placing the words "Under God" in the pledge, the only interpretation is that our roots and also our present is that we are a religious nation. This is an undeniable fact going back to the Quakers and the Pilgrims up to the Born Again Christian movements of the 20th century. I hate to tell the Atheists, but changing the words in the pledge, isn't going to change the underlying facts.

perfect post

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The words "Under God" in the pledge were chosen not to favor any religion over another. If they had chosen, Under Christ, or Under Allah, or Under Yahwey, I believe that would have been unconstitutional. But the words Under God, only upset those who don't believe in God, and I don't believe that they should be viewed as a religion.

 

By placing the words "Under God" in the pledge, the only interpretation is that our roots and also our present is that we are a religious nation. This is an undeniable fact going back to the Quakers and the Pilgrims up to the Born Again Christian movements of the 20th century. I hate to tell the Atheists, but changing the words in the pledge, isn't going to change the underlying facts.

Well said chengrob!!! And if the rascals don't like it IMO, let 'em leave! :woot:

Lots of foreign countries out there that will blow their arses off for not worshipping their God.

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Ahh... I still don't have a problem with the words "under god" gods big territory and covers many things for many people...if ya don't wish to say them 2 words...then don't.

It doesn't get any simpler then that :geezer: !!!

 

I still want someone to answer to me , if not under God, Then under WHO????

 

Bout Time to do some firing and re- hiring in politics agian!! :mrsgreen:

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That guy dosnt have the right to force his atheist beliefs on his child who is being raised by her mother. Basically undermining the mothers parental decisions when he dosnt even have custody and further confusing the child. My guess is that he probably knew she was a christian when he married her and this whole athiest bit is a way to prove to her that instead of being a failure as a husband and parent, that its really because of their difference in beliefs why it didnt work out. He needs to give it up and let her raise her child.

 

Why is it always the ones who have an ill motive or just want their moment in the spotlight that are taken seriously by the courts? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

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Well said chengrob!!! And if the rascals don't like it IMO, let 'em leave!  :woot:

Lots of foreign countries out there that will blow their arses off for not worshipping their God.

No, not well said Chengrob at all.

 

The words "under God" imply that there is a god. This is wrong, no-one has proof that God (or any other deity) actually exist and it is highly irrisponsable, for these words to be included in the pledge of allegiance. Atheism is a belief, plain and simple. You cant just reject one belief because you dont think that it shoul be classified as a "real belief". And as for "let em' all leave", What kind of ridiculous attitude is that?, you cant just get rid of all followers of a particular belief. There is not much difference between such beliefs and nazi ideology.

 

IMO in thousands of years to come, everyone will be an atheist, people will see that religion is a fairytale. Today, people turn to religion for comfort and for false hope. Look at it this way, in the ancient times, everyone was religious. This was because people couldnt explain things because they had very little scientiffic knowledge. if their crops died they would just say "what the hell?, how did that happen?, well......GOD MUST HAVE DONE IT!...ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY LORD!"

 

But as time moved on, religion declined. Nowadays, religious institutions are of little importance in the community (compared to say, in the medieval ages). This is beecause people are beginning to wake up to the blindingly obvious.

 

I dont have a problem with religious people, regardless of which faith they follow. But i hate it when they act superior, and put atheists down, saying stuff like "you are a hopelessone my child, as the bible says..."

 

Who cares what the bible says, it's just an old book.

Edited by Typhoontom

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Well your can give your opinion all day long here...but I still disagree with ya..:mrgreen: some god had to have a hand in this world were dealing with now...good god or bad god is for everyone to choose. :) v

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