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Guest fragged one

"patriot" act extension

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i would rather a terrorist fly a plane straight into my head, than give up or limit any freedoms.

An interesting image... but I share the sentiment. Give me liberty, or give me a plane to the head.

 

and i know how they would change under the patriot act as well and while i personally dont like it much i think its a necessary evil.

A necessary evil? Then where do we draw the line? How long before it is an 'unnecessary' evil? Edited by Neo X1

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Guest fragged one

An interesting image... but I share the sentiment. Give me liberty, or give me a plane to the head.

not exactly patrick henry, but good enough. :lol:

 

edit: that's going in my signature.

Edited by fragged one

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alright damn it. mcveigh, did he deserve a warrant?

Angie,

 

You seem to misunderstand the function of goverment warrants. They are only issued when a clear and present danger is proven before a duly authorisd agent of the state. Furthermore, the state has no authority to carry out any action contrary to civilian rights in the absence of such warrant.

 

I

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Guest fragged one

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

 

anyone recall this from history class? at the time, they were part of britain facing an oppressive government. this could be where we're heading, too...

Edited by fragged one

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They are only issued when a clear and present danger is proven before a duly authorisd agent of the state.

why would you think i would have no understanding of that iain? i understand perfectly.

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Angie,

 

You seem to misunderstand the function of goverment warrants. They are only issued when a clear and present danger is proven before a duly authorisd agent of the state. Furthermore, the state has no authority to carry out any action contrary to civilian rights in the absence of such warrant.

 

I

....they do now..... :angry:

 

 

I was not opposed to the Patriot Act as an urgen measure, an exceptional measure, in a time of crisis that required action by the government. But I can't support extending it or making any part of it permanent. This needs to be stopped.

 

 

 

 

 

Angela....do you understand that they can come after our guns now?

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Guest fragged one

You 'constitutional zealots' need to let your belts out another notch....re-write the bloomin thing and lose some of the paranoia for chrissakes!

no.

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Give an inch and they'll take a mile. We're already seeing it. Who knows what they'll propose and do next. Maybe not just extensions but even more items that infringe on our freedom.

 

One thing I don't get is the people saying we have to do this and that to protect our freedom against terrorists. The biggest threat to our freedoms is the whitehouse admin., the men & women sitting in congress, and the supreme court. Hell I guess you could say our entire federal government is a threat right now. People have already dragged themself along with what congress is saying, trying to justify all that they do. It's already gotten to the point where those people can't turn back without saying they were wrong, which most are too blinded by their sense of pride to admit.

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why would you think i would have no understanding of that iain? i understand perfectly.

Well then why would you caution aganst obtaining a warrant before acting? That is what you meant to say, isn't it?

 

I

Edited by Iain

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You 'constitutional zealots' need to let your belts out another notch....re-write the bloomin thing and lose some of the paranoia for chrissakes!

:o Et Tu Sir T? :(

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hehehe.......see, they told ya'll that Latin would come in handy :P

I didn't say it was no good, I just don't think it's necessary for high schools...

 

don't you go changing the subject on me!

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I didn't say it was no good, I just don't think it's necessary for high schools...

 

don't you go changing the subject on me!

Yes, well, he did get you there......

 

He is probably frolicking over it right now.....

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Yes, well, he did get you there......

I don't see how, my position on that has not changed.

 

He is probably frolicking over it right now.....

Frolicking indeed. :lol:

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nothing chop?

Patience....I have been pretty busy. I just got a snazy new HP Laserjet for garatis so I have been playing with that.....plus I stayed late at work to take care of some things.

 

 

 

 

Proof?

 

I'm know what you mean. How can I prove something that has yet to escalate. The ability for them to search, seize, and arrest without warrant is now clear. The seizure of firearms of private law-abiding citizens has already happened. It is only natural to assume that if their ability to do such things is greatly extended then more of it will happen.

 

If you want to know more about actual cases of the illegal seizure of weapons of private law-abiding citizens I would suggest joining the NRA, they are very good about publishing them.

 

One particular case that I remember from my home town about 17 years ago involved a man that was accused by his ex-girlfriend of being "depressed", she called the police. The police and sheriffs together raided his home. They took over $50,000 worth of weapons, most of which were collectibles. In addition they took his VCR, his VHS tapes, all his books and magazines, his stereo and TV.

 

They committed him for 72 hours of observation. After the 72 hours, when his lawyer finally got to the judge, the judge ordered him released ASAP as it was clear that the woman was making false accusations, and she had a history of it.

 

Then he bagan the process of attempting to get his stuff back....which was illegally seized and as such was ordered by the judge to be immediately returned. The problem was that the police claimed it had all been destroyed. I personally know of one sheriff's deputy and one local police officer who have some of those firearms hanging on the wall in their own homes. He was never reimbursed for his loss.

 

 

 

I think that looking at the definition of warrant might illuminate what I am saying. Not only can they now operate without a warrant, but by definition they can now operate without warrant. Taking out the "a" really drives home the point I think.

 

 

Oh....a couple of the cops happened to be cousins of the woman. ;)

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I would suggest joining the NRA

already done chop.

 

and i know about the kind of activity you mentioned and i misunderstood you, i thought you meant a weapons clause was written into the patriot act specifically and thats what i was looking for proof on.

 

IF this ever gets used to seize the weapons of the standard law abiding citizen doing nothing wrong ill be the first one to scream make it illegal.

Edited by Angela

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Exactly my point...a police State. It just kinda sneaks up.

im absolutly willing to rethink my position here, but i get stuck at the same place everytime....

 

terrorism must be stopped by any means possible.

 

how does one refuse to give up, as everyone puts it, a few freedoms knowing it could, however small the odds, it could prevent another 9/11 or london or madrid?

 

knowing what your enemy is up to is the best thing you can do to plan for protecting yourself.

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already done chop.

 

and i know about the kind of activity you mentioned and i misunderstood you, i thought you meant a weapons clause was written into the patriot act specifically and thats what i was looking for proof on.

 

IF this ever gets used to seize the weapons of the standard law abiding citizen doing nothing wrong ill be the first one to scream make it illegal.

The Act has already been abused.

 

Here is the report to Congress.

 

 

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/doj/oig71703patactrpt.pdf

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im absolutly willing to rethink my position here, but i get stuck at the same place everytime....

 

terrorism must be stopped by any means possible.

 

how does one refuse to give up, as everyone puts it, a few freedoms knowing it could, however small the odds, it could prevent another 9/11 or london or madrid?

 

knowing what your enemy is up to is the best thing you can do to plan for protecting yourself.

ok, if terrorism must be stopped by any means possible, are you willing to let them take your guns away as Chop has said could happen? If you say you would stop it at that point, then you are inconsistant.

 

either you think it infringes on your rights or it doesnt.

 

sounds like that old addage.

 

A man asks a women to sleep with him for $1.00. she laughs says "what type of girl do you think I am." and tell him to leave.

 

he then offers $1,000,000 to her for the night and she thinks a bit and says ok.

 

He then tells her that now she knows what type of girl she is but was just quibbling about the price.

 

Either you think this is infringing or you dont. Cant wait for it to affect you.

Edited by hftmrock

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Either you think this is infringing or you dont. Cant wait for it to affect you.

alright, heres the deal. :P

 

i want to support the patriot act and think at the heart of the matter is a good idea. i lean towards thinking this wont be too bothersome to the average joe and its gonna be fine in the long run.

 

HOWEVER......

 

i cannot and will not now or ever support anything that limits the second amendment.

 

i see the POTENTIAL for an abuse of power here. im sitting on the fence. i need more information, more time to think, more something.

 

i would like for someone to show me how it is currently infringing on the rights of everyday law abiding citizens and how i personally am losing my civil liberties.

 

im confused. i dont know what i think. isnt that still allowed?

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