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Iraq

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How anyone can see the invasion of a sovereign land as a trivial issue, is beyond comprehension.

 

If the reasons are not what matters when it comes to attacking another country then I am afraid you will have to explain what is the important deciding factor.

 

A whim perhaps, luck of the draw, I had a bad day, you look funny, maybe yo momma wears combat boots, you cheated at bingo, maybe because plaid skirts clash with striped blouses. :huh::blink:

a sovereign nation is a lot of things and one main requirement would be the ability to defend its borders, which Iraq could not do :mrwinky:

 

The idea that a country cannot be attacked just because it is a nation is a rather new idea, when I say new I mean within the last 20 years...many countries have fallen, many have lost land for various reasons but being a sovereign nation does not indicate you are secure from invasion or attack.

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Don't know why I liked that?? but I did.

 

 

many have lost land for various reasons but being a sovereign nation does not indicate you are secure from invasion or attack.

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a sovereign nation is a lot of things and one main requirement would be the ability to defend its borders, which Iraq could not do :mrwinky:

 

The idea that a country cannot be attacked just because it is a nation is a rather new idea, when I say new I mean within the last 20 years...many countries have fallen, many have lost land for various reasons but being a sovereign nation does not indicate you are secure from invasion or attack.

No it doesn't insure you will not be attacked, especially with a Bush in the White House, no one is safe.

 

So then about 90% of the worlds nations are not sovereign nations because they couldn't withstand a border attack from the United States?

 

So then Iraq was justified in attacking Kuwait in 91, because Kuwait was incapable of defending it's borders?

 

Mexico and Canada are not sovereign nations because we could invade their borders with ease?

 

Thats just rediculas.

 

I suppose your neighbors house isn't really his if you are bigger and can beat him up? :mrsgreen:

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Call it what you like, I'm against war with a nation that did nothing to us . And as far as getting the one responsible for 9/11 , I said "a small nuclear device" as apposed to bombing the he!! out of a whole nation , including innocent people. Whty do you think the world hates us . Travel overseas once and open your mouth, as soon as they recognize where your from , your like the plauge. One small bomb as opposed to killing thousands of women , children and people who have nothing to do with 9/11 , seems a better deal than what we are doing now. Which is grooming the next generation of terrorist, like we did fourteen years ago . Check the age of the terrorist ? Better to let them govern themselves, it's their country not ours ! What gives us this right ? Or is it all about the oil? That's what they think . When Bush gave his SOU speech they asked the Iraqis what they thought ,most responded " I don't know , we still have no electricity " or "I wish you would just take our oil and leave " More than 3,300 women and children were killed or injured in Iraq. What was the toll for 9/11?????

And there were NO Iraqis on those planes. How did we go from getting Bin Laden to getting Iraq? It make no sense at all !! It's not even rational . So yeh , if we'd dropped one SMALL bomb, we would have had him , they would have given him to us . And if we would have done it immediatly after 9/11, the world would have been behind us. My God , even Canada isn't with us . What give us the right ???

My God , even Canada isn't with us

We may not have sent troops, and i can tell you it bothered alot of us here in the frozen north, but we sure wer'nt cheering for the other side.

We have since replaced that no account leader who would turn his back on a friend in need,although the bean counter that replaced him would have found a fiscal reason not to go either.

Theres a point where talking ceases to be the valuable course and action is required. In the future we can only hope that the bold stand taken by the U.S and U.K. in Iraq will bare fruit and give pause to any other global tyrant who's been told to cease and desist or else.......

I only hope the decisions of our frail leadership in Canada has'nt irreparably

damaged our relationship with our southern neighbors.......

 

humbly

an ex canadian soldier

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You hate; Peace, Stablity, Equality?

 

 

No I hate 2 faced liars,,political prostitutes and all the other riff/raff that talk the good talk but take a walk when push comes to shove. they are 'for the most part' spineless bastids. :) v
Ok V, if this was directed towards me fine , yesterday I was a Wacko . So fine I will not Post again, no problem . I meant nothing personnel towards you or anyone else . In reference to the U.N. , people in this country must understand how this looks to other nations . Not unlike when Bush left the Kyoto meetings on global warming . Everything needed to be said was said.

I have not condemed you or anyone else , I have not called you names, or have I been disrespectful to anyone. I appologize if my views insulted you or anyone else. I just pray that you have no proginey that may be caught up into this or any conflict like this . Some wars may be justified . We have eliminated one man . Not an idealolgy . We must relize that they consider this a Holy war , we cannot win . We cannot establish a Democracy in an Islamic nation . There never has been , never will be .

Wasting American blood for nothing is the cruelist thing a country can do to itself. What are we going to gain from this? No one has answered this. Do you think for a moment that someone similar to Saddam , won't take his place. History says that is exactly what will happen the moment we leave.

So again I'm sorry for expressing my veiwpoint. Bon soir.

 

PEACE :)

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Ok V, if this was directed towards me fine , yesterday I was a Wacko . So fine I will not Post again, no problem . I meant nothing personnel towards you or anyone else . In reference to the U.N. , people in this country must understand how this looks to other nations . Not unlike when Bush left the Kyoto meetings on global warming . Everything needed to be said was said.

I have not condemed you or anyone else , I have not called you names, or have I been disrespectful to anyone. I appologize if my views insulted you or anyone else. I just pray that you have no proginey that may be caught up into this or any conflict like this . Some wars may be justified . We have eliminated one man . Not an idealolgy . We must relize that they consider this a Holy war , we cannot win . We cannot establish a Democracy in an Islamic nation . There never has been , never will be .

Wasting American blood for nothing is the cruelist thing a country can do to itself. What are we going to gain from this? No one has answered this. Do you think for a moment that someone similar to Saddam , won't take his place. History says that is exactly what will happen the moment we leave.

So again I'm sorry for expressing my veiwpoint. Bon soir.

I really don't think he meant to insult or direct that at you...

 

But why do we have to be the ones to gain something from this, why can't it be the iraqi people? I feel sorry for you if you really feel american blood was wasted... Not in a bad way, but because I know i would hate to feel that way...

 

If we stay there, then I don't think someone like saddam will take his place. That is one reason why we need to stay, and this time, if the person that does gain control even starts to look like another saddam, we need to keep some sort of leverage that would allow us to uproot them before it comes to this again...

Edited by Highlander

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a sovereign nation is a lot of things and one main requirement would be the ability to defend its borders, which Iraq could not do  :mrwinky:

 

The idea that a country cannot be attacked just because it is a nation is a rather new idea, when I say new I mean within the last 20 years...many countries have fallen, many have lost land for various reasons but being a sovereign nation does not indicate you are secure from invasion or attack.

No it doesn't insure you will not be attacked, especially with a Bush in the White House, no one is safe.

 

So then about 90% of the worlds nations are not sovereign nations because they couldn't withstand a border attack from the United States?

 

So then Iraq was justified in attacking Kuwait in 91, because Kuwait was incapable of defending it's borders?

 

Mexico and Canada are not sovereign nations because we could invade their borders with ease?

 

Thats just rediculas.

 

I suppose your neighbors house isn't really his if you are bigger and can beat him up? :mrsgreen:

i didnt define it...and actually kuwait did defend its borders, it used us and many other nations. I didnt say anything about justifications, I just informed you that being considered a sovereign nation doesnt give you some sort of right to protection.

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Bruce, One2Gamble is correct with his statement about being sovereign. A country has to be able to prevent against attack to become a nation-state. Canada is sovereign because we do have a military. Surely it could not defend against an American attack but we would die trying and that is what makes us sovereign. We cannot and will not be ruled by another nation and we are totally independent from all other countries.

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I only hope the decisions of our frail leadership in Canada has'nt irreparably

damaged our relationship with our southern neighbors.......

 

humbly

an ex canadian soldier

Tokehemp, as these discussions flourish on the 'net there are more and more indications that people are beginning to distinguish between populations and their leaderships, realising that ordinary people have little control over the processes that put those leaders in power. We are all 'sharpening up' when it comes to allocating blame.

One of the few advantages of our current system of 'representative democracy' is that it provides us with figureheads which we can sacrifice when things go very wrong. Under a true democracy we wouldn't be able to do that, rather, we'd all have to bear responsibility for our actions as nations. When that time comes the deliberation processes which many of us will use will have been tuned by discussions like this. Meanwhile , we all have figureheads to sacrifice whether it be Bush, Blair, your guy or the dingo in Oz. :) , so if you want to top yours now I'm sure that's perfectly OK. We'll do ours later. :lol:

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My answer to the original question is still the same. They should leave now!!!

 

They should leave because they will never be welcome there.

 

Those that support them will never be welcome there.

 

Their allies will never be welcome there.

 

The puppet government they leave behind will not last 2 minutes.

 

We have read over and over about the need to take out Saddam. He was making WMD's. He murdered 400,000 Iraqis... Who is sitting in judgment of him? Could it be the same people who in the 1st gulf war killed something like 300,000 people in 43 days? Is it the same people who kept sanctions running against the Iraqi people despite knowing that they were killing hundreds of thousands of children? According to UNICEF reports in 1996, a monthly average of 4,500 children under the age od 5 were dying in Iraq from hunger, not to mention those that died because we blockaded medicines too. When asked about this fact, Madeline Albrights defence was that "it is a price worth paying". The West was accountable for the tortuous, slow death of over a million innocents in Iraq. A few more than Saddam was guilty of killing, yet he is the monster???

 

There are hundreds of other such acts of gross inhumanity, either by the USA or their allies, which Muslims have had to endure. Is it any wonder that they hate enough to blow themselves into tiny bits in order to get their revenge?

 

Get out now. We don't belong there. We never did and we never will.

 

 

 

NB; Sovereign to mean 'independent nation'. Ability to withstand the oil hungry West is not a definition by any means.

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Guest fragged one

people were dying in iraq not because of the sanctions, but because saddam was taking the stuff that came in (medicine, food, etc...), and selling it for his own personal profit.

 

this guy was worth billions, but was running a nation that was quickly turning into a 3rd world country. that's just further evidence that the sanctions and other un resolutions weren't working.....my god, the 'food for oil' program was just a complete joke.

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g'morning Fragged :)

 

I dare say that Saddam was playing a small part in making matters worse during the sanctions, but read some of the items in this link and tell me that he was the main culprit.

 

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanct...1/critindex.htm

 

The USA/UK led sanctions were a WMD used by us on them! The effects reached out beyond the Iraqi border and made this into a West versus Muslim problem. The problem is far more widespread than many realise or choose to acknowledge.

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Guest fragged one

g'morning Fragged :)

 

I dare say that Saddam was playing a small part in making matters worse during the sanctions, but read some of the items in this link and tell me that he was the main culprit.

 

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanct...1/critindex.htm

 

The USA/UK led sanctions were a WMD used by us on them! The effects reached out beyond the Iraqi border and made this into a West versus Muslim problem. The problem is far more widespread than many realise or choose to acknowledge.

good morning, sir t :)

 

the un's choice of attpemting to enforce their resolutions (sanctions) did not work, for many of the reasons stated.

 

interesting link, the three-paragraph section for sanctions was not very informative.

 

nobody disputes that there was a humanitarian crisis in iraq, however, this crisis was mainly caused and exacerbated by hussein's greed and carelessness for his citizens. i think that dozens of mass graves containing tens of thousands of bodies, men, women, and children, many obviously executed, is more of a humanitarian crisis. hussein was trying to put pol pot to shame.

 

i think eddie izzard said it best here:

 

Other mass murderers have gotten away with it...Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, well done there. Pol Pot killed 1.7 million Cambodians, died under house arrest, age 72. Well done, indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is because they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Oh, help yourself! You know? We've been trying to kill you for ages! So, if you kill your own people, right on, then.

 

But Hitler killed people next door.... stupid man. After a couple of years, we won't stand for that, will we? Pol Pot killed 1.7 million people, and we can't even deal with that. We think that if someone kills someone, that's murder, you go to prison. You kill 10 people, you go to Texas, they hit you with a brick, that's what they do. 20 people, you go to a hospital and they look at you through a small window forever. And over that, we can't deal with it. You know?

 

If somebody's killed 100 thousand people, we're almost going, "Well done! You killed 100 thousand people?! You must get up very early in the morning! I can't even get down the gym! Your diary must look odd: Get up in the morning, death, death, death, death, death, lunch, death, death, death, afternoon tea, death, death, death, quick shower.

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Those that support them will never be welcome there.

 

 

So what? That is the dumbest excuse for leaving I have heard to date. Do you honestly think that the United States gives a rats patoot if we are welcome there or not? News flash, I dont think Great Britain cares much ethier.

 

We will go, when we're ready, not one second more. Again....

 

Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with our own:  dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than 250 citizens of India; men and women from El Salvador, Iran, Mexico and Japan; and hundreds of British citizens.  America has no truer friend than Great Britain.

 

Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there.  It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.

 

These measures are essential.  But the only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows

 

Great harm has been done to us.  We have suffered great loss.  And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment.  Freedom and fear are at war.  The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us.  Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future.  We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage.  We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail.

 

I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it.  I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.

 

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain.  Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them

 

(all quotes from the Presidents address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People, 9/20/01)

Its just that simple. President Bush also said that this contact will end at a time, and in a manner of our choosing. We're not done yet, not in Iraq, and not with whoever is next.

 

Angela

Edited by Angela

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When asked about this fact, Madeline Albrights defence was that "it is a price worth paying".

That coming from a woman who claims the current President has Bin Laden in the basement of the White House on house arrest until the November elections......

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We will go, when we're ready, not one second more. Again....

The coalition are already pissin their pants and falling over themselves in their hasty retreat :lol:

 

Its just that simple. President Bush also said that this contact will end at a time, and in a manner of our choosing. We're not done yet, not in Iraq, and not with whoever is next.

 

uhuh, undefeatable in Vietnam too :rolleyes:

 

Such arrogance is what got us into this trouble in the first place.

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Yeah, when I think of all those arrogant holidaymakers in Bali getting blown to bits over their coconut milk and shellfish I get a really warm feeling for the bombers.

Attack them in their nests until they are all gone.

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Yeah, when I think of all those arrogant holidaymakers in Bali getting blown to bits over their coconut milk and shellfish I get a really warm feeling for the bombers.

Attack them in their nests until they are all gone.

How many Iraqi's were involved in that bombing moon?

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Full circle. There may or may not have been terrorists in Iraq when we got there but there are now. Fight or quit ?

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They are not terrorists in Iraq. They are guerillas looking to oust the invasion force. The same armies from the very same countries that killed hundreds of thousands of their children over the last 14 years.

 

Quit.

 

edit: We are gonna quit before the place is settled anyways. May as well do it now as later. ;)

Edited by Sir T Fireball

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