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Other countries have been murdering their own for years . Why does the U.S. decide to invade countries that have something that we have to gain from? We propt up Saddam when he was at war with Iran, it suited us. The Iranians rose up against the Shah who we help put in power . And the cycle continues ????? :huh: We helped the Majhdeen in Afghanistan , where Bin Laden made his bones . We never went after Pol Pot , Idi Amin,and many others, why the Middle East ??? When we left Veitnam , what were the repercusions to the U.S. ??? Still haven't figured that war out either !! Boost the economy ,get oil , get the jobless rate down . All very good reasons to kill .

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Other countries have been murdering their own for years . Why does the U.S. decide to invade countries that have something that we have to gain from? We propt up Saddam when he was at war with Iran, it suited us. The Iranians rose up against the Shah who we help put in power . And the cycle continues ????? :huh: We helped the Majhdeen in Afghanistan , where Bin Laden made his bones . We never went after Pol Pot , Idi Amin,and many others, why the Middle East ??? When we left Veitnam , what were the repercusions to the U.S. ??? Still haven't figured that war out either !! Boost the economy ,get oil , get the jobless rate down . All very good reasons to kill .

So , if I understand you, you are upset because we took on this bully but not others. Do you feel it is possible to help everyone in the world? If not, should we say forget everyone? Obviously since we can not fix everything that is wrong with the world someone has to decide who to take on and when. I believe we pick our battles to the best of our abilities. Do we make mistakes?? Of course, but I would rather do what I can and make some mistakes (And hopefully learn from the mistakes) then do nothing at all.

 

Obviously we waited too long in our attempts to get Bin Ladin and we paid a dear price. I hope we dont make THAT type of mistake again.

 

EDIT:typo

Edited by hftmrock

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Over lunch this topic came up. They suggested a solution I hadn't considered. They suggested that Saddam could be released and installed as leader again.

 

There are a number of advantages. Clearly he is a weakened leader and the likelihood of attacking other countries will be delayed indefinitely.

 

He has no WMD and there is little evidence he could make them in the near term future. After all he would still be watched, Iraq is dirt poor, and he could be attacked again if he made WMD.

 

As a weakened leader it would need to be a bit more benign in his rule or risk a popular revolt.

 

He appears to have succeeded in keeping radicals and terrorists under control during his rein. Presumably he could do that again.

 

There are clear advantages to the US. We can get out with reduced loss of life and without further antagonizing the Iraqis. Best of all there would be no terrorist enclaves that appear to be forming.

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Henry, have you any suggestions as to what they might have done to prevent this farce? The whole thing was pre-meditated and a fait accomplis long before 9/11. America would have gone alone if they had to. They showed total contempt for the UN.

Total contempt is all I have for the UN.

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Over lunch this topic came up. They suggested a solution I hadn't considered. They suggested that Saddam could be released and installed as leader again.

 

There are a number of advantages. Clearly he is a weakened leader and the likelihood of attacking other countries will be delayed indefinitely.

 

He has no WMD and there is little evidence he could make them in the near term future. After all he would still be watched, Iraq is dirt poor, and he could be attacked again if he made WMD.

 

As a weakened leader it would need to be a bit more benign in his rule or risk a popular revolt.

 

He appears to have succeeded in keeping radicals and terrorists under control during his rein. Presumably he could do that again.

 

There are clear advantages to the US. We can get out with reduced loss of life and without further antagonizing the Iraqis. Best of all there would be no terrorist enclaves that appear to be forming.

Wow, would that be embarrassing.

 

"Right. So... um, since we didn't find any of those darn wmd thingies, we have deciced to return your leader-guy back to you! *dramatic pause while Saddam shuffles out of helicopter* O.K. then, here you go, good as new, *dusts him off a bit* Oh and, sorry about, you know, all those missles and the mad man comments, we got a bit caught up in the moment, don't you know"

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Henry, have you any suggestions as to what they might have done to prevent this farce? The whole thing was pre-meditated and a fait accomplis long before 9/11. America would have gone alone if they had to. They showed total contempt for the UN.

the perfect way to prevent this war now would of been for the UN to hold Iraq to the resolutions it had agreed upon in the first place, and dont give me the whole what makes Israel so different bs argument. If the UN wants to have power and these resoultions/treaties it needs to enforce them. Saddam should of been removed in the mid-late nineties when he first began his string of violations.

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Good read,, and it makes some gravy for both sides of the skillet. :lol: v

 

 

 

 

A policeman shoots a robber who has killed in the past and who brandishes what seems to be a gun. The gun turns out to be a cellphone. The policeman expects a thorough investigation (and ought to cooperate). In the end, if he is exonerated, it is not because he made no mistake but because his mistake was justified. Reasonable people, facing uncertainty, would have thought they saw a gun.

 

George W. Bush and the CIA thought they saw a gun. So did French President Jacques Chirac, who last February warned of Iraq's "probable possession of weapons of mass destruction." So did Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean, a former Vermont governor, who last February said, "My personal belief is that Saddam may well possess anthrax and chemical weapons. That being the case, he must be disarmed."

 

 

The truth he hid, however, was not his weapons but his weakness. Or perhaps his minions were hiding his weakness from him. In either case, his power and prestige depended upon his fearsome reputation at home and his defiant posture abroad. He was contained but could not afford to let anyone know it, for fear of being invaded or overthrown. So he waved what looked like a gun and got shot.

 

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/nj/rau...h2004-02-11.htm

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Personally, I feel that there is a certain 'might makes right' attitude. If there was evidence that we are making progress in restoring order, and creating a democracy, I would like to see it. It seems in some ways there is less security in Iraq now than there was immediately before the war. Yes, Saddam mass executed people, but what evidence is there that he was doing this in Mar 2003? If he was in the process of killing another 10,000 people, then it would be easy to argue that things are better. But I have not heard that argument, so I must assume that he was not on the verge of killing more people. And hence, Iraq is now less secure, not more secure to the ordinary Iraqi.

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Regime change in Nov ...would do the US a lot of good ....It's not just the the President ...Its the string pullers...... that need to go..... Rumsfelt and his oilers don't strike me as very safe set of hands ...

 

It would be easier then, for the US to change policy, with fresh blood in the office....

 

Too many factions with very old tribal hatreds and religions for the whole country to run effectively under one government ...The boarders were arbitrarily set by the league of nations and the British when we were top dog , anyway.....They bear very little relation to the ethnic makeup of the country..

Maybe the US ought to go down the route of divide and conquer ...then withdraw ,from the centre and south at any rate.... leaving several regional governments.......

 

I still think that the US is going to end up with a permanant military base in the North....

 

 

 

I

Edited by Tankus

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Posted on Feb 11 2004, 03:28 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (volt @ Feb 11 2004, 01:35 PM)

Total contempt is all I have for the UN.

 

Amen Volt.

 

Angela

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's exactly veiws like this that has helped the world feel as it does towards the U.S.

America is right, the World is wrong ????? :woot:

Edited by THE ROACH

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Posted on Feb 11 2004, 03:28 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (volt @ Feb 11 2004, 01:35 PM)

Total contempt is all I have for the UN.

 

Amen Volt.

 

Angela

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's exactly veiws like this that has helped the world feel as it does towards the U.S.

America is right, the World is wrong ????? :woot:

Not sure I understand you Roach...

 

If someone sees something wrong and voices their opinion, thats the reason the world feels the way it does to america???

 

Obviously the UN is not always right. At this point in time it let the US down when we were looking to unite. It was the UN's decision and they stood by it. But If we disagree and have strong feeling against it we can voice them. I am sure Volt and Angela can pull many other instances where they felt the UN was wrong.

 

If having negative views to any organization is something that the world will look bad on then I guess I am going to look bad at times. I would rather that, then never saying anything and always going with the status quo

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Posted on Feb 11 2004, 03:28 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (volt @ Feb 11 2004, 01:35 PM)

Total contempt is all I have for the UN.

 

Amen Volt.

 

Angela

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's exactly veiws like this that has helped the world feel as it does towards the U.S.

America is right, the World is wrong ????? :woot:

Roach find something else to post on if my or anyone elses opinion gets you that upset.

 

I hate the UN and everything it stands for and you nor anyone else will change my mind on them.

 

Only they can do that,,and it will be a long wait.

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Posted on Feb 11 2004, 03:28 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (volt @ Feb 11 2004, 01:35 PM)

Total contempt is all I have for the UN.  

 

Amen Volt.

 

Angela

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's exactly veiws like this that has helped the world feel as it does towards the U.S.

America is right, the World is wrong ????? :woot:

Roach find something else to post on if my or anyone elses opinion gets you that upset.

 

I hate the UN and everything it stands for and you nor anyone else will change my mind on them.

 

Only they can do that,,and it will be a long wait.

You hate; Peace, Stablity, Equality?

 

The United Nations was established by the United States in an attempt to bring all of those things to a post war world. Now while many countries are following the mandates of the United Nations the founder is condeming it. For the United Nations to work the world must learn to work together and bring stability and this will never happen if there mandates are not followed.

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You hate; Peace, Stablity, Equality?

 

 

No I hate 2 faced liars,,political prostitutes and all the other riff/raff that talk the good talk but take a walk when push comes to shove. they are 'for the most part' spineless bastids. :) v

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You hate; Peace, Stablity, Equality?

 

 

No I hate 2 faced liars,,political prostitutes and all the other riff/raff that talk the good talk but take a walk when push comes to shove. they are 'for the most part' spineless bastids. :) v
so you hate the US government too?? :P

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You hate; Peace, Stablity, Equality?

 

 

No I hate 2 faced liars,,political prostitutes and all the other riff/raff that talk the good talk but take a walk when push comes to shove. they are 'for the most part' spineless bastids. :) v
:beer: :beer:

someone finally said it :woot::banana2:

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Blah, blah blah..... :ok:

 

 

Thats what this whole thing is....

 

Saddam deserved, and needed to be taken out. There is no question, if you believe otherwise, then you are closed minded.... Whether or not we had justification for doing it at this time is trivial considering it has already been done.

 

If the UN or anyone else didn't like how we did this, then they need to pull their heads out of their rear ends and actually DO SOMETHING... Not sit there and complain "Mean ole Saddam kicked us out and won't let us check his weapons"......"Mean old USA attacked without our permission..."

 

Well too f'n bad. They had years to accomplish something, and never got a dang thing done. That is what it boils down to. They refused to do anything to Iraq... And The UN made this into a political fest, instead of a security, or human rights issue.

 

I didn't like our excuses for the war, but I am not going to say that it was wrong of us to go over there, or to take out Saddam.

 

If You think a man who is constantly threatening us, constantly yelling out his hate for us, who has a lot of money, would never organize or fund a terrorist attack against us, then you must have major blinders on.

 

I don't care if more terrorists come out of this, this is only one of the first steps. They will have to be dealt with as well. This isn't some stupid debate about which country is meaner, it is an issue that is affecting the lives of the entire world, not just ours, and not just Iraq's.

 

If all we care about is whether or not we had the right to invade and take over a sovereign nation, then we are worrying about trivial issues that has nothing to do with what really matters.

 

Its time for our planet to realize that greed and hate have to be stopped and that the betterment of mankind in all its forms must now be the way we choose to live our lives, as citizens of planet earth.

 

And if it comes down to bloodshed, which is inevitable when it comes to people who hate, and are full the type of greedy self-righteous attitude that Saddam had, then everyone is going to have to accept that. Everything has its price. And I'll bet that years from now there are going to be a lot of grateful people in the world if and when this task is accomplished.

 

And I'll bet there are quite a few people out there in Iraq and Afghanistan that are glad their oppressors are gone.

Edited by Highlander

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so you hate the US government too?? :P

Yes,,but lets not drift too far. :mrgreen:

 

I don't want anyone thinking I'm playing favorites to anyone including myself.

 

I'm not upset with anyone who don't see things my way,,and I just don't want folks to get upset with me on certain topics,, because I just say what I think knowing full well that others are going to rip me for it.

 

So be it,,just rip away!! :lol: v

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If all we care about is whether or not we had the right to invade and take over a sovereign nation, then we are worrying about trivial issues that has nothing to do with what really matters.

How anyone can see the invasion of a sovereign land as a trivial issue, is beyond comprehension.

 

If the reasons are not what matters when it comes to attacking another country then I am afraid you will have to explain what is the important deciding factor.

 

A whim perhaps, luck of the draw, I had a bad day, you look funny, maybe yo momma wears combat boots, you cheated at bingo, maybe because plaid skirts clash with striped blouses. :huh::blink:

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With all due respect "And if it comes down to bloodshed, which is inevitable when it comes to people who hate, and are full the type of greedy self-righteous attitude that Saddam had, then everyone is going to have to accept that." One could substitute Bush's name in that sentence for Saddam's. I am not trying to inflame passions but these are the same charges leveled against Bush. So you argument is that the US was justified in attacking a country because it was run by a person who some would describe Bush in the same manner that you have described Saddam.

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In my book when a supposedly soverign nation and in this case there was no real nation, but dictatorship, One man calling himself one that was killing innocent people and commiting horrid acts of violence...

 

 

I no longer consider that a soverign nation. It is trivial. A nation is just a government, its the people that matter, not the government. A government is supposed to be there for the people, not the other way around. Thats what makes this trivial. The moment Saddam started killing and tortureing his own citizens for more or less fun, he lost his sovernity.

 

This is what is beyond comprehension. People hold onto these outdated values about why we shouldn't defend innocent people because it is culturally wrong. That is total bull. Its ok for people to complain about these things, but not to do anything about it.... WTH

 

 

If the reasons are not what matters when it comes to attacking another country then I am afraid you will have to explain what is the important deciding factor.

That is just what the whole post is about, read it again. I even said I didn't like all our excuses (aka reasoning) we used behind the attack. We had other reasons that should have been used. Like we aren't going to stand Sick S.O.B.s killing people for pleasure.

 

Please, don't take one thing I said and try to make it look like something else... :rolleyes:

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With all due respect "And if it comes down to bloodshed, which is inevitable when it comes to people who hate, and are full the type of greedy self-righteous attitude that Saddam had, then everyone is going to have to accept that." One could substitute Bush's name in that sentence for Saddam's. I am not trying to inflame passions but these are the same charges leveled against Bush. So you argument is that the US was justified in attacking a country because it was run by a person who some would describe Bush in the same manner that you have described Saddam.

 

Number one: At least we can elect someone else, which was impossible with Saddam regime.

 

Number Two: I don't remember Bush killing for pleasure, or torturing people just because they didn't like his policies.

 

I hate Bush, but he is in no way like Saddam. Yes he is greedy, he is self righteous. That is why he needs to be impeached or at least not re-elected, not for his taking of Iraq.

 

 

By the way, those aren't charges, the charges were killing, raping, and torturing. Bush hasn't done this, yet. Those are just character traits that cause change to come at a great expense, unless there is something like our elections to force it.

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Posted on Feb 11 2004, 03:28 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (volt @ Feb 11 2004, 01:35 PM)

Total contempt is all I have for the UN.  

 

Amen Volt.

 

Angela

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's exactly veiws like this that has helped the world feel as it does towards the U.S.

America is right, the World is wrong ????? :woot:

Roach find something else to post on if my or anyone elses opinion gets you that upset.

 

I hate the UN and everything it stands for and you nor anyone else will change my mind on them.

 

Only they can do that,,and it will be a long wait.

You hate; Peace, Stablity, Equality?

 

 

none of which the UN actually brings

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