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Doug

Second hand smoke ?

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Of course shutting down the computer and putting it in a rubber room (take it off line) "is the answer".

I agree that an infected computer should not be connecting to the Internet, but some don't know that is infected until it starts loosing icons, start menu, control panel, regedit ... can't log on, etc.

 

So who's going to monitor our computers to see if they're infected? MS or your ISP? Which one is going to shut it down? :huh:

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ISP of course would do the monitoring (they already monitor traffic).

 

Microsoft would pay all incurred costs of course.

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So now there is also:

 

Rapport and Flashlight (from Trusteer)

Whereby your bank may obtain Remote Access to your machine.

 

Rapport and Flashlight are such innocent and friendly names, they "almost" allow me to overlook that they actually mean that My Bank is controlling my computer.

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/191518/trus...tml?tk=rss_news

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Doug the day you clicked I agree when installing your operating system, you lost control of what you think is your computer. :lol:

Edited by Bruce

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Bruce,

It was also the day that I was able to compose, save, print, and distribute various documents that are important to me, correspond with various people that are important to me, and engage in moments of enriched learning as well as ridiculously silly entertainment and laughter.

 

That there are better systems, and that Windows system can and should be made to be better, is not likely to cause people to stop ringing the bell... I agree.

 

I appreciate your persistent reminders that there is another way. :tup:

 

In my own way, I think I am contributing to overall improvement of the situation by assisting those who can't do for themselves, and teaching those who can.

 

I admit that there is a good argument to be made that my efforts are in some ways doomed to fail because they are "half-measures" and because in a strict sense I am not a "tech" or even close to it.

And I admit that advocacy of Linux systems may be a more full measure.

 

Still, I don't endorse the idea that Linux Distros could flawlessly survive the onslaught of bad-guys, virus and spyware developers, bot herders, and system vulnerability exploiters, in the event that the majority of the world switched to Linux. Nor do I imagine that if Windows battened down all the hatches, it would be invulnerable to even the present threats.

 

The results may be better with Linux, and/or with an improved Windows, or not. It hasn't been put to the test.

 

The beat goes on.

And it is true that I have yet to discover any answer to the mystery of unringing the bell.

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I never mentioned Linux, Unix, Apple, BeOS, Minix, AIX, openSolaris..........or anything else.

 

Merely commenting on the fact that you seem to be amazed that someone else is controlling computers rather then users.

 

The fact is I as I posted above, the day you clicked agree and installed your operating system you agreed to allow that to happen.

 

The fact that other organizations, and corporate entities are seeking to do the same should neither be shocking, nor disturbing, it is a very common thing, so common that more then 90% of computer users have agreed to such nefarious practices.

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In the interest of good communication and fair debating, I will admit a few things...

 

I admit you didn't mention Linux.

I admit I am not familiar with most of the systems you listed and have mostly used Windows systems since moving over from Apple in the late '90's, with only minimal prior experience with Fortran on a Unix machine via punch card deck reader.

 

I admit that it is hard for me to read references by and about Stephen Hawkings without thinking of the incredible power of the "weak forces of matter".

I admit that it is hard for me to read references by and about Carl Sagan without thinking of the word "cosmos".

And I admit that it is hard for me to read references by and about Bruce without thinking "LINUX".

 

With my confusion exposed and hopefully clarified, I still stand in agreement with you, that operating systems should be held accountable to do what they purport to do, and to do it in a way that supports user safety.

 

I think we are in agreement.

 

I will note, that I am not "shocked", but only dismally noticing yet additional examples of commercial systems treating treating owner/users as the least important component. And I will admit that most users do not properly utilize the security features that are available to them, even with Windows.

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if windows had a secure user base viruses and rootkits will fall by 90%

 

after that we can deal with the other 10% patching code thus making things a hell of a lot easier when attempting to actually eradicate them.

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I disagree. Like I said earlier, those tips leave something to be desired for me...limited user accounts never seem to get mentioned in these professional articles for some reason.

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"Fortunately, anti-malware protection is a low-cost or no-cost investment in keeping your PC safe from hackers. I recommend the following useful suite of free security software: AVG's Anti-Virus Free Edition 9.0 , Checkpoint's ZoneAlarm Free Firewall , and AVG's LinkScanner ."

 

This stanza has quite a good content in it which was unknown for us. These proves to be actual remedial measures for the entire discussion.

 

 

you want to clean, we want to prevent ;)

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I disagree. Like I said earlier, those tips leave something to be desired for me...limited user accounts never seem to get mentioned in these professional articles for some reason.

 

 

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

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Will the majority of foreign ISPs support a quarantine system — much less provide free security software? Doubtful.

 

Fortunately, anti-malware protection is a low-cost or no-cost investment in keeping your PC safe from hackers. I recommend the following useful suite of free security software: AVG's Anti-Virus Free Edition 9.0 (product page), Checkpoint's ZoneAlarm Free Firewall (download page), and AVG's LinkScanner (product page).

 

As an alternative to AVG, Microsoft also provides a free antivirus product called Security Essentials (download page). Personally, I think AVG is more effective, but Microsoft does offer a no-cost form of protection.

 

Together, these products can do a good job of eliminating malware without the expense of annual subscription fees.

It seems like this idea is dated or are they living under a rock? MSE is good, but you have to uninstall any other AV to install it which means you exclusively trust it to protect you (like putting all of your eggs in one basket). Plus, while I like AVG LinkScanner it is hard to use with other like applications due to incompatibilities. One time I got this crazy idea to test WOT, AVG LinkScanner, and SiteAdvisor at the same time. I'm not going to tell you how that one turned out. :blushing:

 

Back to the original topic. I do think that this is a good idea, but do not tell me what type of security suite to use - even if you are giving it away for free. To me, that just seems a little much and I have always been a believer in "Best of Breed" because it forces the AV/AS/Anti-Malware company to compete in order to make a better application or to stay on top of the latest threats. On the other hand, security suites are preferred by some people and that is not bad - just another way of looking at things. That is just my opinion.

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Anti-malware suites are a band aid to cover other more serious problems. They are after thoughts, kind of like buying a new boat and then having to go to the store to buy a crate full of cork plugs and seam sealer just to keep it afloat.

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Bravo: what Doug said. :clap: :clap:

 

Pretty sure the economy would flippin' collapse if MS fixed Windows, everything from anti-virus suites to mom and pop fix-it stores would be out of business. I like fixing Windows ;)

 

:)

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Or programmers could get on with doing more productive things that actually bring new ideas and some new creative software to market rather then wasting time with creating the latest and greatest band aid.

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The 'bubble dome' --> prevention, is what we all want.

 

I don't clean dirty computers for a living. My help is, and has always been free... but!..I get so disgusted with the pre-teens (and those who really should/do know better) for not following the security advice given freely.

 

The attitude of "well, I'll just reformat and do it again" astounds me.

So now, we have either the ISP or Windows to babysit these "I want it now, and no I won't pay for it" user's attitude.

 

Holes are targeted, and they will be continued to be targeted no matter which OS is the most popular.

Windows OS's are the best target for malware writers, because it's the most popular. (yes, it comes pre-installed on all store bought computers)

 

With that in mind, if everyone switched to another OS ... I believe that other OS would be the target.

 

You can't stop the kiddies from distributing their evil exploits. It's a matter of who writes the best exploit to gain the money with their script/code.

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Holes are targeted, and they will be continued to be targeted no matter which OS is the most popular.

Windows OS's are the best target for malware writers, because it's the most popular. (yes, it comes pre-installed on all store bought computers)

 

With that in mind, if everyone switched to another OS ... I believe that other OS would be the target.

 

 

jacee no pun intended' but do you honestly believe the popularity thing ?

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People who don't understand basic security principles usually do believe the popularity scheme :lol:

 

That said, no system is 100% secure, no system will ever be 100% secure, and to many users simply consider it a "hassle" that should be disabled because it's too hard to type a password. :P

 

It's just to damn difficult, people can't be bothered, so everyone is giving administrative privileges, they browse the internet with administrative privileges, they open emails with administrative privileges, the pre-teens Jacee talks about are given administrative privileges, they play on facebook, myspace, twitter, WoW.............all with administrative privileges, and they do this not because they are uneducated, not because they know better, not because they feel safe, they do it because they are too lazy, they can't be bothered, and the people they trust, the more advanced users tell them to do this, this very forum had and has so many users and threads about how to disable UAC, how to lower it's prompts, how to avoid it................ hell these things were even posted in the tech talk section of the main site a few times.

 

It isn't pre-teens that are the problem, it isn't mommy and daddy that are the problem, it is the so called security people, it is the so called advanced users, and the so called computer tech sites. It is the programmers who, and software developers, the web page creators, the hosting sites...............

 

Why are they like this?

 

They are like this because it's all they know, it's how the system they were taught to use worked, it worked by giving everyone administrative privileges, so when an attempt to introduce real security was finally done. people stomped their feet, they got upset, they couldn't be bothered, it was annoying, a hassle, and on and on, and on. Now I agree that companies first attempts, were not the best in the world, but that system was 100 times more secure then previous versions.

 

The next major gaff by the lazy and ignorant, is to think that slapping band aids on top of security holes is "security". It is not in any way shape or form "security". What it is, is an afterthought to try and detect, catch and clean things that have already made it's way onto a system.

 

The I can do whatever I want because I have a box of band aids mentality, is all too common, and is one of the biggest problems we have. Teens and re-teens are not the problem, the problem starts at the top, until the ones at the top, the programmers, the coders, the software creators, the operating system makers, and more importantly the ones who give advice to millions of people, until they change, nothing else will change.

Edited by Bruce

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Of course MS is severely flawed in these regards....and so are many who make money off of it....like Geek Squad. Heck, PC Pitstop would not even be here if it were not for the severe problems with Windows.

 

Frankly, MS shouldn't open their collective mouth where security is concerned. It just seems like Barney Fife giving a lecture on security.

 

BUT, one cannot deny that when systems are attacked/compromised the primary responsibility lays with the person(s) who did it......the hackers....the virus writers....the ones who create the root kits.

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BUT, one cannot deny that when systems are attacked/compromised the primary responsibility lays with the person(s) who did it......the hackers....the virus writers....the ones who create the root kits.

 

 

it has nothing to do with the hackers or writers, it's an easy streak for them, they are living the life at the end users expense, their fine, they don't need to find ways compromising hardened systems, if they did it would be much too costly for five minutes of fame and they may find a new career :laughing:

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