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cmunson

The Illusions of Vista

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I have run a decent Intel system, in fact, I am running one right now. An e6300 OCed to 3Ghz, 2GB of DDR2-1000 RAM, and an X1900XT. My first computer was a Pentium 3 when they first came out. My system after that was a 1.2Ghz Celeron based off the excellent Tualatin Pentium 3. Every system after that was AMD because it performed the best, and was cheaper than Intel. However, I recently upgraded to Core 2 when the X2 I intended to buy was only $10 cheaper than an e6300.

 

How can you have inferior multi-tasking? Isn't multi-tasking doing more than one thing at once? If so, how can there be inferior multi-tasking?

 

AMD's offerings never had hyperthreading, and don't need it. Do you even know why Intel used Hyperthreading on their Pentium 4 CPUs, when no other processor before it had it? I can tell you this: It's not because it was for better multitasking. That was a side effect of it. Core 2 doesn't have it, the Pentium series up to the Pentium 3 never had it. They all emphasized designs similar to AMD's offerings. Ironic is it not?

 

AMD doesn't need huge caches due to the memory controller being on the processor itself, so huge caches aren't needed to mask memory latency, since it will be low to begin with. ;)

 

As for Barcelona, it will be as good as Core 2, if not better. I have sources to back that up. That's a lot more than I can say for you.

 

They may be being phased out, but that's no reason to leave the Pentium D out. The Athlon64s will soon be phased out, Core 2 will soon be phased out, everything will be phased out at one point, however obsolesence is not a good reason to leave out something, especially when it's inconvienent towards your bias against AMD.

 

BTW: http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/10/dua...res/page29.html

 

It seems that an 805D at 4.1Ghz isn't quite as fast as you would like. ;)

Edited by brandon

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"Toms Hardware"................"Of course, we ignore synthetic benchmarks when making this assertion, because they have no bearing on real-world PC use or behaviour." :clap::clap:

 

I have been saying for years

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How can you have inferior multi-tasking? Isn't multi-tasking doing more than one thing at once? If so, how can there be inferior multi-tasking?

I'm referring to the lag/studdering/freezing for short periods of time when multi-tasking on an AMD that we've never experienced with the same programs on an Intel CPU, be it single core with hyperthreading or dual core with/without hyperthreading.

 

AMD's offerings never had hyperthreading, and don't need it. Do you even know why Intel used Hyperthreading on their Pentium 4 CPUs, when no other processor before it had it? I can tell you this: It's not because it was for better multitasking. That was a side effect of it. Core 2 doesn't have it, the Pentium series up to the Pentium 3 never had it. They all emphasized designs similar to AMD's offerings. Ironic is it not?

Ironic maybe, but the end result was better multi-tasking any way you slice it. Just because the other company has their product to market first, doesn't mean that the other wasn't working on the same technology at the same time or before. But even if either company was copying the other, I couldn't care less. In fact, I'd be disappointed if either company intentionally neglected to incorporate the best design into their components. That's what keeps prices down. Competition is great.

 

AMD doesn't need huge caches due to the memory controller being on the processor itself, so huge caches aren't needed to mask memory latency, since it will be low to begin with. ;)

Partly why Penryn is supposedly going the same route.

 

As for Barcelona, it will be as good as Core 2, if not better. I have sources to back that up. That's a lot more than I can say for you.

So you're stuck with comparing what AMD will have to what Intel does have. Why not compare apples to apples, Barcelona to Penryn? Intel just released their expected results, which brag up to 50% more performance than the current quad cores. But don't take my word for it, use your sources to find out.

 

And while you need to rely upon others to do the testing for you, I do my own. I'd be willing to bet I've build and tested more AMD and Intel systems in the past 2 years than you've owned in your life.

 

I'll have a E6300 to test again later this week. But for now, we just got another price drop on C2Ds. The E6300 is now $15 more than the X2 4800. The E6400 is now $45 more than the X2 4800. I happen to have the E6400 in my own system. Read the results of a stock E6400 vs a stock X2 4800 and weep. If my memory serves me correctly, the E6300 will come out pretty similar, but I'll post when I have the results to prove it again.

 

http://oc.ultramaxcc.com.au/E6400_vs_X2_4800.htm

 

 

They may be being phased out, but that's no reason to leave the Pentium D out. The Athlon64s will soon be phased out, Core 2 will soon be phased out, everything will be phased out at one point, however obsolesence is not a good reason to leave out something, especially when it's inconvienent towards your bias against AMD.

My bias toward AMD would go away in a heartbeat if they had a comparable product at a comparable price to Intel right now, and if the motherboard support was as dependable. As a system builder, I'm not interested in what either company offered a month ago. I want the best bang for the buck for my customers now. The C2D is the best bang for the buck right now IMO. There is no faster Pentium D, and there is no faster AMD in the same price range. Never was.

 

BTW: http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/10/dua...res/page29.html

 

It seems that an 805D at 4.1Ghz isn't quite as fast as you would like. ;)

 

You're apparently picking and choosing which of my statements to disregard. I said AMD has nothing comparable in that price range now. I paid $130AUD for our 805Ds about 6 months ago. At that time (and when that article by TG was written), the X2 4800 was well over $300AUD. Even now the X2 4800 is $185AUD for me, and that's wholesale. Funny, the AMD prices have just gone up again while the Intel prices have come down.

 

Not as fast as I'd like? LOL! The 805D lost by 1 frame on the average frames/second and beat the X2 4800 by 9 frames on the max frames/second. I'd say it is every bit what I'd like. Just as fast or faster than the X2 4800 and much cheaper than the X2 4800. It was TG's article that inspired this:

 

http://oc.ultramaxcc.com.au/

 

I'm more convinced now than ever that we've made the right decisions all along. :)

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Maybe arguments about things that have nothing to do with Vista would have been a better title for this thread....... :laughing::rofl2:

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Maybe arguments about things that have nothing to do with Vista would have been a better title for this thread....... :laughing::rofl2:

 

I see by your avatar you KNOW vista!

I found this interesting - part of an email I recieved from HP reguarding my low memory on a brand new computer that Ive not added anything to only been deleting since Ive gotten it.

 

I have verified the database and this issue is occuring with the latest

PCs preinstalled with Windows Vista Operating system. This issue is due

to errors in the latest Windows Vista Operating system. I would like to

inform you that Windows vista operating system is newly launched

operating system, there are many issues working with the operating

system. Microsoft and HP are working on the issues, and will release

software updates to resolve these particular issues.

 

Ive also found that to have a recovery elsewhere besides my D drive, I would be asked to spend from 20 - 40 dollars for the series of recovery discs. So after all the issues with HP I have had since my purchase, they have decided Ive had enough and they are sending me the series 'no charge'.

Then what I plan to do is to delete the recovery off my computer and continue with the other un wanted programs until I finally get rid of most of the bloat so as I can at least use this more comfortably.

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I see by your avatar you KNOW vista!

I found this interesting - part of an email I recieved from HP reguarding my low memory on a brand new computer that Ive not added anything to only been deleting since Ive gotten it.

 

I have verified the database and this issue is occuring with the latest

PCs preinstalled with Windows Vista Operating system. This issue is due

to errors in the latest Windows Vista Operating system. I would like to

inform you that Windows vista operating system is newly launched

operating system, there are many issues working with the operating

system. Microsoft and HP are working on the issues, and will release

software updates to resolve these particular issues.

 

Ive also found that to have a recovery elsewhere besides my D drive, I would be asked to spend from 20 - 40 dollars for the series of recovery discs. So after all the issues with HP I have had since my purchase, they have decided Ive had enough and they are sending me the series 'no charge'.

Then what I plan to do is to delete the recovery off my computer and continue with the other un wanted programs until I finally get rid of most of the bloat so as I can at least use this more comfortably.

 

I'd be interested in knowing how you come out with the recovery CDs. My last experience with HP recovery CDs was that they restored the computer to exactly the state it was in as it came from HP, complete with the partitioned HD and recovery back on D:\. In this case, you'll be right back to where you started from.

 

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the reason HP and other companies create a separate partition for the recovery rather than install to C:, is that if the C: partition becomes corrupt you would no longer be able to access the recovery either.

 

This is why I recommend buying from a custom shop that can provide you with separate CDs for the OS and software. Had you been provided a separate Vista DVD, you could delete all partitions and format as a single partition again. Recovery/repairing/reinstalling would then be done via the Vista DVD, instead of from your computer. All software would have to be reinstalled separately. This is the only advantage to a recovery CD, as all software is installed with the OS.

 

Best of luck. :)

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"Toms Hardware"................"Of course, we ignore synthetic benchmarks when making this assertion, because they have no bearing on real-world PC use or behaviour." :clap::clap:

 

I have been saying for years

 

real or fake its all just a score of #'s designed for enthusiasts, either one has little bearing for anything...for example, what good is speed when a user clicks through views to change view sizes when they could hit CNTRL then scroll wheel to do the same thing quicker, i'm just saying many users dont have efficient pc habits to begin with. i think their best used for things like overclocking for example or to periodically check to make sure your PC is operating at the same performance level it once used to.

 

 

but the bloat of the program, its full of junk that makes it slower than hell!

when building my new puter, I was told that I would need at least a gig just to run the OS!..

there is a program called Vlite (vlite.net)to cut bloat, you can remove pretty much anything you want such as default programs and drivers for hardware you dont have and customizations, driver integrations,force vista to do what it normally wouldnt..etc, however it has a bit of a learning curve for novices and so far is still in beta but should be finalized soon.

 

pcmagazine as well as several other respected sites recommend 2 gigabytes for vista, 1gig is just kind of an annoying minimum. however the readyboost feature helps alot (size should match system memory for best performance) and theres a method to force vista to use any usb memory stick simply by formatting the usb stick to higher clusters if i recall correctly

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pcmagazine as well as several other respected sites recommend 2 gigabytes for vista, 1gig is just kind of an annoying minimum.

I think these sources recommend 2 gigs minimum for Vista Ultimate and Business. I'd agree with those recommendations. Vista Home Basic and Home Premium should work fine with 1 gig of RAM. But RAM is like cheese for me, you can't have too much. :)

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Vista Home Premium isn't that much different from the Ultimate version.

 

It comes with the rescource eating Areo interface, and the bloatware called Media Center.

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I'd be interested in knowing how you come out with the recovery CDs. My last experience with HP recovery CDs was that they restored the computer to exactly the state it was in as it came from HP, complete with the partitioned HD and recovery back on D:\. In this case, you'll be right back to where you started from.

 

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the reason HP and other companies create a separate partition for the recovery rather than install to C:, is that if the C: partition becomes corrupt you would no longer be able to access the recovery either.

 

This is why I recommend buying from a custom shop that can provide you with separate CDs for the OS and software. Had you been provided a separate Vista DVD, you could delete all partitions and format as a single partition again. Recovery/repairing/reinstalling would then be done via the Vista DVD, instead of from your computer. All software would have to be reinstalled separately. This is the only advantage to a recovery CD, as all software is installed with the OS.

 

Best of luck. :)

 

Well, its too late for that now. I have the HP and all I can do is learn from this. All full up of woulda, shoulda and couldas!...lol...

But to the CD's They should be here in a day or two. What my brillient plan is to house clean.

uninstall all the programs that I wont need. Vistaman(lol) noted about the media center. Ive not yet looked at it, and at this point dont see a need for it, but want to see it first. As I have muliple photos and more to come in the future, so for me it might be a better plan than with my last computer with hundreds of photo files. I did burn off to CD's, but I always had more to come!...lol..neverending process...

But again not knowing what Im doing is that Id like to just clean out everything that I deem unnecessary and then have the cd's to rely on if in the future I do need a full system restore.

I do however have no idea of what Im doing either, so Im running this all by the seat of my pants!

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Let's hope that HP has changed their ways recently. :-)

 

Home Premium doesn't contain many of the networking tools/capability that Business and Ultimate have. That alone reduces memory usage considerably. You can also disable search and see a significant performance gain.

Edited by dark41

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I haven't fully followed the thread but if you are looking to do a plain windows install, you may be able to get a copy burned off at one of your local computer stores. The company that I work for is a Microsoft partner and we are allowed by MS to give customer's copies of windows if the provide their COA sticker and we visually verify that they posses a licensed machine. Sounds weird but MS says that if someone has a license, we can provide a copy of the software that matches the license. i.e. retail for retail, sticker on machine for plain OEM, etc.

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I haven't fully followed the thread but if you are looking to do a plain windows install, you may be able to get a copy burned off at one of your local computer stores. The company that I work for is a Microsoft partner and we are allowed by MS to give customer's copies of windows if the provide their COA sticker and we visually verify that they posses a licensed machine. Sounds weird but MS says that if someone has a license, we can provide a copy of the software that matches the license. i.e. retail for retail, sticker on machine for plain OEM, etc.

 

That's all fine, except then you'll lose the software that HP added with the OS on their recovery disk.

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That's all fine, except then you'll lose the software that HP added with the OS on their recovery disk.

 

Don't you mean HP's stuff ya don't want or need and spend time removing as soon as you get it out of the box it came in?

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:lol: I would have to say yes dawg. Ive spent most of my time taking off what I dont want.

Ive also emailed support many many times. Heres one that I got from them about the D drive issue:

 

To delete D: partition:

 

1. Click Windows Start button and in Search type "Recovery Manager"

2. Click on Recovery Manager Program listed

3. Now the Recovery Manager Program will be opened

4. Click on Advaced Options button

5. Select "Remover Recovery Partition" and click Next

6. Now Select "Yes"and click Next

7. Select "Recovery discs already Created"

8. Click Finish.

 

Now the Recovery Partition will be removed and added to the C:

partition.

 

What Im trying to do is to clean house and wind up with a fresh empty computer. I so wish that Id gone with the xp tho. Im finding the more of my software I try the more I dont have any I can use any more. Im actually as I type running my old xp upstairs to do a job for a customer. I need to print off graduation invitations. Do you think that my one year old HP desktop printer works on this new vista..nope. I dont even dare try to hook up my scanner!

Back to the deletion of D partion. They did send me the recovery discs. so If I ever need that info I do have it, this way it would be off my puter. Am I thinking this correctly?

As with my photos. I copy to disc then clean out my entire computer so they arent taking up so much space anymore. and thats my theory of the D partion. Since I do have it on disc I dont need it on my puter taking up room.

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Do you think that my one year old HP desktop printer works on this new vista..nope. I dont even dare try to hook up my scanner!

 

 

Do a Google search using the model number and Vista for both your printer and scanner. I have seen on quite a few sites that a lot of people with HP printers are getting them working using a different model printer's drivers that are included in Vista.

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