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shogan191

The cost of operating

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Certainly is not true. I would have you look at Suns looking Glass, but that is a moot point as OpenGL is the graphics engine/standard and java ain't got squat to do with it, anymore then activex has anything to do with 2D or 3D.

 

The point is web sites use the "proprietary" activex to make requests to the OS from a web page, java can do the same thing, and do it better, not only better, but more securely and it works in any operating system.

In any case I understand it, but think you could use to do a little more reading, you can start here.

http://www.tgs.com/index.htm?pro_div/3dms_j_main.htm~main

 

http://jmol.sourceforge.net/

 

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-01-1...w-01-media.html

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=3...G=Google+Search

 

http://www.opengl.org/

 

I could have posted a thousand more but figured that was enough to keep ya busy :lol:

 

Thank you Bruce for your worderfull reasearch! I am thinking of day's of old when Java Platform was mainly used for and CAD. Anyway thanks for the update, but I think a major question is, if most of us have open GL Graphics cards that are MS approved, how would they apply to Open source and the Major question is and inquiring minds want to know is< is the new Operating system Vista going to support it also? It appears as though No! They want us to subject to Open source, and if that is the case then my first question is relitive. Then why spen all that extra money when we could do the same with Open source for virtually nothing?

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I didn't do any research, just a simple google search and posted the top few hits. :shrug:

 

I don't know what a MS approved graphics card is, I personally don't look for or ask for approval of my hardware by software makers.

 

As for OpenGL, that is the graphics chip makers who provide the drivers not MS. Microsoft does not make video drivers, they never have and never will. Hardware makers supply the drivers.

 

I can't make heads or tails from the last two sentences/questions you posted. I am not sure what you mean by "They want us to subject to Open source". Who does?

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I didn't do any research, just a simple google search and posted the top few hits. :shrug:

 

I don't know what a MS approved graphics card is, I personally don't look for or ask for approval of my hardware by software makers.

 

As for OpenGL, that is the graphics chip makers who provide the drivers not MS. Microsoft does not make video drivers, they never have and never will. Hardware makers supply the drivers.

 

I can't make heads or tails from the last two sentences/questions you posted. I am not sure what you mean by "They want us to subject to Open source". Who does?

 

What I meant is, if MS new operating system will not allow us to put drivers from our current hardware, then we may have no other choice but to go open source. The cost of our current equipment is deemed usless and we have to buy new equipment and pay the price of the new operating system could be quite expensive.

I think that this goes along with the question of this subject "The cost of operating".

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Hey Ocean what you're saying is true but I don't think there will be a problem with drivers for most hardware. The drivers coming with Vista are even more numerous than the ones with XP or at least that's what I understand. My problem was mostly with the EULA changes or enforcement. If anything installing hardware should be even easer with Vista. The automatic online driver search seems to be a working feature with Vista also. Unlike XP I was able to instruct Vista to do an online search for the driver and it found it and installed very quickly. Nice feature.

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Hey Ocean what you're saying is true but I don't think there will be a problem with drivers for most hardware. The drivers coming with Vista are even more numerous than the ones with XP or at least that's what I understand. My problem was mostly with the EULA changes or enforcement. If anything installing hardware should be even easer with Vista. The automatic online driver search seems to be a working feature with Vista also. Unlike XP I was able to instruct Vista to do an online search for the driver and it found it and installed very quickly. Nice feature.

 

I just went onto the Windows Vista website and downloaded the upgrade advisor, did a scan and everything looks better than it did 6 months ago. Back then there were no Nvidia platform drivers and there are now.

The only problem I see now is software compatability such as Zone Alarm Pro, Norton antivirous, Norton system works and well basically, all Zone Alarm and Norton products.

BTW: the auto online driver search sounds great!

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What I meant is, if MS new operating system will not allow us to put drivers from our current hardware, then we may have no other choice but to go open source. The cost of our current equipment is deemed useless and we have to buy new equipment and pay the price of the new operating system could be quite expensive.

I think that this goes along with the question of this subject "The cost of operating".

 

eventually drivers will become avail--- as similar to xp when it was released, software and driver vendors are on it, soon service packs will be released along with patches, they will probably double the size of vista on a hard disk, the drivers i think wont be old to new, more like new to old so it could be some time till older hardware is supported! they have a long battle ahead :)

 

 

well going to open source has really nothing to do with vista, yes vista is there for the grabbing at a stupid price "my opinion" but its not ready for the public but everyone wants it, i dont know for the life of me "why" that is so :huh:

 

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sho i have a question, what would be your intentions/ what would you do if you couldnt reinstall vista as many times as you wanted?

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eventually drivers will become avail--- as similar to xp when it was released, software and driver vendors are on it, soon service packs will be released along with patches, they will probably double the size of vista on a hard disk, the drivers i think wont be old to new, more like new to old so it could be some time till older hardware is supported! they have a long battle ahead :)

well going to open source has really nothing to do with vista, yes vista is there for the grabbing at a stupid price "my opinion" but its not ready for the public but everyone wants it, i dont know for the life of me "why" that is so :huh:

 

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sho i have a question, what would be your intentions/ what would you do if you couldnt reinstall vista as many times as you wanted?

 

Thanks for your reply! I think you are absolutly correct! Time will take it's course as with Windows Xp!

And to Bruce I like open source, but as I have said in the past, it's not for everyone.

I will not give it to my customers, as they do not know how to use it, and are asking for a system that will run Vista. I am in the business to build and satisfy customer request and unfortunatly open source is not one of them! ;)

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it can be for everyone as long as there made aware of it and there willing to learn beyond windows!

 

i said this in the past "i can do everything on linux that i did on windows but better"

 

alot dont even know they have options, my customers trust me when i say they wont regret the change, they make the switch aned i explain in plain english what they need to do and if theres something they cannot grasp just ask :)

 

you say they dont know how to use it, well they will never know if they dont want to know :rolleyes:

 

with that said most are willing and ready but just lack the information due to thinking that there is only one operating system on this planet!

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it can be for everyone as long as there made aware of it and there willing to learn beyond windows!

 

i said this in the past "i can do everything on linux that i did on windows but better"

 

alot dont even know they have options, my customers trust me when i say they wont regret the change, they make the switch aned i explain in plain english what they need to do and if theres something they cannot grasp just ask :)

 

you say they dont know how to use it, well they will never know if they dont want to know :rolleyes:

 

with that said most are willing and ready but just lack the information due to thinking that there is only one operating system on this planet!

 

I concure to what you are saying but It won't sell to the general public as they want an operating system that is ready to go and fully loaded. I and my colleges build systems for mostly people in my general vacinity and have more request for Windows Vista which isn't out yet for public use, but a system that is Vista ready! This is where me and my coilleges make our money . What the general public wants!

We build Intel and AMD systems, but no one wants open source! This is a fact! Most of these peole are family's with children and a lot of them are eldery who aren't into open source and have no desire to do so.

If you have a plan that can convince people to purchase other why's we are open to it! ;)

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Thanks for your reply! I think you are absolutly correct! Time will take it's course as with Windows Xp!

And to Bruce I like open source, but as I have said in the past, it's not for everyone.

I will not give it to my customers, as they do not know how to use it, and are asking for a system that will run Vista. I am in the business to build and satisfy customer request and unfortunatly open source is not one of them! ;)

 

Sure it's for everyone, if you won't offer it and explain it's cost saving benefits then you do them a disservice.

 

Satisfying a customer isn't about always giving them what they want, or telling them what they want to hear. It is often about offering the best tool for the job at hand.

 

Proprietary software makers do not have the customers interest at heart, they have one goal, to take as much of the customers money as possible, this is done by limiting features, and options and making the customer pay more to acquire them.

 

Open Source software makers have nothing but the product and end user at heart, they take a piece of software or an idea and try to improve it many do this because they want a feature that could be improved, so they do it.

 

However I find the biggest difference between the two is nothing more then "advertisement" dollars. Name recognition. Finally FUD.

 

Take enough money and advertise often enough and people buy it, then of course the usual FUD.

 

Simple fact of the matter is your customers don't really care and a great majority don't even know what operating system they have, they want computers that just work.

 

What I find is that folks who build computers and provide services don't know anything else, so they sell what they know, claim it is the best, not because it is, but because they are in no position to sell and or support anything else.

 

I contend that 90% of the computer users out there could get by with a palm pilot and a throw away paper camera :lol: and don't know the difference between foobar and dev_null. But they fall for the FUD, they fall for the advertisement campaigns, and they think it has to cost a pile of money to buy, use and maintain a computer.

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Sure it's for everyone, if you won't offer it and explain it's cost saving benefits then you do them a disservice.

 

Satisfying a customer isn't about always giving them what they want, or telling them what they want to hear. It is often about offering the best tool for the job at hand.

 

Proprietary software makers do not have the customers interest at heart, they have one goal, to take as much of the customers money as possible, this is done by limiting features, and options and making the customer pay more to acquire them.

 

Open Source software makers have nothing but the product and end user at heart, they take a piece of software or an idea and try to improve it many do this because they want a feature that could be improved, so they do it.

 

However I find the biggest difference between the two is nothing more then "advertisement" dollars. Name recognition. Finally FUD.

 

Take enough money and advertise often enough and people buy it, then of course the usual FUD.

 

Simple fact of the matter is your customers don't really care and a great majority don't even know what operating system they have, they want computers that just work.

 

What I find is that folks who build computers and provide services don't know anything else, so they sell what they know, claim it is the best, not because it is, but because they are in no position to sell and or support anything else.

 

I contend that 90% of the computer users out there could get by with a palm pilot and a throw away paper camera :lol: and don't know the difference between foobar and dev_null. But they fall for the FUD, they fall for the advertisement campaigns, and they think it has to cost a pile of money to buy, use and maintain a computer.

 

We do offer systems with No operating system and that option has alway's been there!

Everyone wants Windows!!! Or Vista ready systems! :pullhair:

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i do it well, this ensures i make a decent cut then if i were to use windows, its expensive to go that route and it limits the cut at the end!

 

its easier for me to use linux rather then windows because when installed 99% of the drivers are installed out of the box, applications are already included so theres nothing really to buy, the customer is aware of the low costs and thus increases my wages :P

 

you cant do that with windows, well i cant because i feel like i cheated them, and they ask why so much money, its happened alot, i dont deal with it as much as before!

 

the customer eventually wants information and for what i was paid to setup there system that information is included, but during some point in time they wont need me anymore and im off to the next happy customer etc.....

 

i dont know what methods you use and im not downing them in any way, just a little lost is to why its not working for you :rollie:

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We do offer systems with No operating system and that option has alway's been there!

Everyone wants Windows!!! Or Vista ready systems! :pullhair:

 

 

Ahh I see so you offer Windows Vista or no operating system at all............and you wonder why your customers want it :rofl3::laughing:

 

Thats kind of like a car dealership saying we will sell you car with goodyear tires, or no tires at all, then wondering why all your customers buy cars from you with goodyear tires :rofl2:

Edited by Bruce

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Lots of points to look at here. Especially when looking at what's right for the customer. Here's a question. Is it fair to sell the customer a machine that has an operating system installed on it that very few shops can work with? I think I'm pretty safe in assuming the open source operating systems would stump most shops these days. What about that responsibility. Do you insist your customers deal exclusively with you? Just hope they never have a problem? ( I'm directing this at Bruce and duanester only because they are posting opinions and positions, I'm sure they know it's in the interest of discussion.) You must admit that they would be limited on where they could get service.

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they never had any problem's, i build the machine add the hardware and linux adds the drivers :)

 

there access to the web/ office/ games/ utilities/ instant messangers and what ever else they want or need, anyone should be able to operate in that manner :tup:

 

they dont need to worry about cleaning or doing any maintenance because there isnt any, my customers love that and they thank me, if for any reason theres a problem its fixed within minutes over the phone!

 

edit: the operating system outlasts the hardware for a change :lol:

Edited by duanester

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That's great as long as they call you. What if you move or die? Happens you know. The machine has as short a leash connected to you as Windows has to Microsoft. Kinda the same slant on business. isn't it?

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well i see what your saying but they learn and dont need you anymore, the thought on wanting to do something new drives the human mind to wanting answeres and if they feel that its worth learning nothing will stop them, there are no boundories when it comes to learning

 

sho im not very bright but i learned :mrgreen:

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The machine has as short a leash connected to you as Windows has to Microsoft. Kinda the same slant on business. isn't it?

 

not really as i said above, once the individual learns they wont need ms nor me thus there knowlegde passes to the family and freinds and the trend continues, ive seen it a dozen times, now when it comes to building a rock solid computer ms wont do this, which leaves me and you :)

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Trust me everyone here is brighter than I am. It takes an operating system that's easy to use and install, applications and programs that do what the customer wants, and yep even someone to help the customer with hardware and software problems. That all has to come together to get something for the little lady on the internet, the sales executive getting his taxes ready for his accountant, and the local tree cutting service with 5 employees, using your operating system. I get all excited when I hear about a city the size of Tamil Mandu (see orig. link) going with Linux for their governmental contracts. Represents enough money and business to get things crackin. :)

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Lots of points to look at here. Especially when looking at what's right for the customer. Here's a question. Is it fair to sell the customer a machine that has an operating system installed on it that very few shops can work with? I think I'm pretty safe in assuming the open source operating systems would stump most shops these days. What about that responsibility. Do you insist your customers deal exclusively with you? Just hope they never have a problem? ( I'm directing this at Bruce and duanester only because they are posting opinions and positions, I'm sure they know it's in the interest of discussion.) You must admit that they would be limited on where they could get service.

 

I never insist on anything. I don't insist they use anything other then what they choose to use, and I certainly do not insist that they always return to me for service.

 

If they don't deal with a competent "computer" shop that knows enough about computers and the various operating systems available then they should seek assistance from more qualified people ;)

 

They are only limited to the help they can get, if they choose to limit themselves.

 

I personally would not let a machine out the door without adding a few links to their bookmarks of various help forums, the local Linux User Groups (LUGS) giving them my personal phone number, and email address, along with the support number for Novell/SuSE.

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sho i rarely get calls from customers that use linux, i get hammered by those with windows :P

 

 

 

It takes an operating system that's easy to use and install, applications and programs that do what the customer wants, and yep even someone to help the customer with hardware and software problems.

it is easy to use and install :huh:

 

hardware and software is taken care of at the start, after that its rock solid and it works, i dont get bothered for those things because they work and they work well :)

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Bruce, do you think there are that many shops where the people have a working knowledge of some of the Linux Operating systems? I didn't think there would be.

 

duanester, I believe you. :)

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