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Marines to France

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Bruce is far from 'ignorant' in suggesting that sovereign States have a right to defend themselves from being overflown. The legality of the Iraqi 'No Fly Zones' is dubious, as is the legality of the current conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

 

This is not to say that the No Fly Zones were morally wrong but it comes back to the dangers of proclaiming a moral stance based on illegal action.

 

Whilst it might be fair to criticise the French government for refusing to take part in a legal war against Saddam it is unfair to criticise them for refusing to take part in an attack which had no solid legal foundation.

 

Don't forget, the Brits flat refused to get involved in Vietnam.

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God Bless the French and France, without their help in defeating the British navy in our war of Independence we may still be a British Colony.

Not polititcally popular but historically true. The French are difficult but also are inextricably linked to the American democratic experiment. It's a bit of a mystery why America hates France so passionately: After all, didn't France donate the Statue of Liberty to the USA?

 

I

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It's a bit of a mystery why America hates France so passionately

I don't think it does. At the moment, unfortunately, the goober grunts have the upper hand. Also, such ignorance speaks loudest and drowns out any sounds of reason.

 

French soldiers can and do fight as well as any when well led, just like any other military.

 

There likely would not be a USA if not for France. Vive La France!

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A loss is a loss, no matter the reason why you lost. Call it a war, a battle, a conflict, a police action... call it whatever you want, we all know what it really was.

This is what I was talking about...you complaint about the Frencdh bashing is Kettle and Pot.

 

Like I said, war battle what have you, there are loses, and they are great no greater loss then human life.

 

And tooting the horn of the mighty Canadians is a good thing on your behalf national pride is a great thing, so on that note don't be angry when Americans show the same pride.

 

In the end no one wins a fight. Things may be better off for having fought it but no one's wins a fight.

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So much ignorance in the thread that it simply amazes me.

 

I won't even comment on the extremely ignorant Vietnam remarks .

 

However as far as the ignorance surrounding France and their support of the United States I would highly recommend that the ignorant pull their heads out of the sand and educate themselves. Of course that would require more then just reading the spam they recieve in their email. ;)

 

 

 

France is thus the United States’ second-largest partner in Afghanistan with a total of 1670 French troops.

 

Indeed, France was the first country, along with the United States, to have flown bombing missions over Afghanistan in direct support of American ground troops.  In total, some 5,500 French service members were sent to the region.

http://www.centcom.mil/Operations/Coalitio...ages/france.htm

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So much ignorance in the thread that it simply amazes me.

 

I won't even comment on the extremely ignorant Vietnam remarks .

 

However as far as the ignorance surrounding France and their support of the United States I would highly recommend that the ignorant pull their heads out of the sand and educate themselves. Of course that would require more then just reading the spam they recieve in their email. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.centcom.mil/Operations/Coalitio...ages/france.htm

:P

 

Without trying to upset anyone, I agree with Bruce!

 

The French were in Nam, long before the Americans.

 

The Link between the two Countries goes way back to before the War of Independance.

 

French Soldiers are certainly not Cowards, neither are the French people! Many American, English, Canadian and Aussie Pilots owe their Lives to the French Underground. D-Day would not have really worked without the French Underground.

 

Bruce is right about getting some Knowledge before you attack people from another Country.

 

:beer: :beer: :geezer::geezer:

Edited by Drovers Dog

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Quite so. Vietnam was, essentially, their fault.

:P

 

Nope,

 

If you really research it, you will get a Surprise how similar it was to Iraq, that's why the French wanted nothing to do with Iraq!

 

:beer: :beer: :rofl2::geezer:

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If you really research it, you will get a Surprise how similar it was to Iraq, that's why the French wanted nothing to do with Iraq!

I preferr the idea that they were bribed by Saddam through the Oil for Food program.

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1847

French vessels bombard Da Nang in response to persecution of Catholic missionaries.

http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/french.htm

 

:rofl2:

 

 

Edit; I shouldn't laugh. It's very sobering to know that all those guys, of all nationalities, went through over a hundred years of hell over a bunch of uninvited catholic missionaries.

Edited by moon

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:P

 

Interesting quote from your Link, Mate.

 

 

" AN ANALYSIS OF THE FRENCH DEFEAT AT DIEN BIEN PHU

 

On 7 May 1954 the French garrison at Dien Bien Phu

fell, culminating an operation which lasted 209 days. The

last 54 days the garrison was actually under constant

attack. For the French, Dien Bien Phu was the straw that

broke the camel's back. Two months later, on 20 July 1954,

a formal cease-fire between the French and Viet Minh was

negotiated at Geneva. This agreement ended an eight year

war which produced over 75,000 killed for France's

Expeditionary Force. (1:367) This cease-fire was never

advanced beyond a military truce, and the lack of a

political settlement left the door open for the next

Indochina war. In fact, the Viet Minh left Geneva convinced

that they had been double-crossed. They believed the

Chinese forced them to accept a partition of Vietnam rather

than a unified Vietnam under their control. (5:204) The

victory on the battlefield was lost at Geneva as far as the

Viet Minh were concerned; however, they did not give up on

their goal of unifying Vietnam.

The Viet Minh defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu in a

set-piece battle which, in essence, amounted to beating the

French at their own game. The shock of this defeat

reverberated throughout the western world. As Colonel

William F. Long stated twelve years after the defeat, "Dien

Bien Phu or DBP has become an acronym or shorthand symbol

for defeat of the West by the East, for the triumph of

primitive.... Dien Bien Phu resulted in severe political

consequences."(6:35) The French defeat was indeed an utter

disaster for both France and America who, by 1954, was

underwriting 80% of French expenditures in Indochina.

(5:170) Given the unfavorable developments resulting from

this defeat, the causes of the French loss warrant further

examination. The keystone Army Warfighting Manual FM 100-5

states, "Success in battle may not alone assure the

achievement of national security goals, but defeat will

guarantee failure." (8:1) This manual also emphasizes the

importance of nine principles of war which are fundamental

to current Army doctrine. Dien Bien Phu can be analyzed

through the use of the principles of war. These principles

are not sacrosanct; however, they should not be violated

without thought. At Dien Bien Phu the French violated

nearly all of the principles of war at every level of war--

strategic, operational, and tactical. These violations

contributed significantly to the French defeat."

 

Really makes you think about it?

 

Particularly this bit?

 

"At Dien Bien Phu the French violated

nearly all of the principles of war at every level of war--

strategic, operational, and tactical. These violations

contributed significantly to the French defeat."

 

:beer: :beer: :geezer::geezer:

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You'd think we'd have learned something by now.

:P

 

When I was a 140lb Kid, I used to say to the bigger Blokes around 200 to 250lbs that were picking a Fight with me, "You go right ahead, Mate, you might give me a Hiding, but I am going to have a mean little Pick in the meantime."

 

Their biggest worry then was if I managed to beat them?

 

Guess it always ends up that way?

 

:beer: :beer: :geezer::geezer:

Edited by Drovers Dog

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A loss is a loss, no matter the reason why you lost. Call it a war, a battle, a conflict, a police action... call it whatever you want, we all know what it really was.

I never said a loss wasnt a loss, but comparing a lost battle to a lost war is like saying you won after 1 quarter in a football game.

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:P

 

Nope,

 

 

yep, though our extended involvement had little to do with the French

 

 

 

again, I have no problem with the French, they are a nation and have the right to make decisions as their people and leaders see fit.

Edited by one2gamble

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Bruce is far from 'ignorant' in suggesting that sovereign States have a right to defend themselves from being overflown.  The legality of the Iraqi 'No Fly Zones' is dubious, as is the legality of the current conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

 

This is not to say that the No Fly Zones were morally wrong but it comes back to the dangers of proclaiming a moral stance based on illegal action.

 

Whilst it might be fair to criticise the French government for refusing to take part in a legal war against Saddam it is unfair to criticise them for refusing to take part in an attack which had no solid legal foundation.

 

Don't forget, the Brits flat refused to get involved in Vietnam.

People will always question the legality of treaties on this planet, its their nature. The simple fact is "no-fly" zones were agreed to by the Iraqi government at the time as a condition of the cease fire while being supported by the UN. In reality, once they targeted the planes patrolling the no-fly zone they were in violation of the treaty and subject to attack. Edited by one2gamble

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:P

 

If people would just step back and think about what is happening in France?

 

It can happen in ANY Country in the World, now?

 

I know that most Countries are trying to Address the Problem, but it is will be interesting to see what happens now?

 

Human Nature is renowned, particularly in (Democratic) Countries that believe in Fair Play, to react violently, if it is percieved that the Government is not doing the right thing?

 

:beer: :beer: :geezer::geezer:

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I never said a loss wasnt a loss, but comparing a lost battle to a lost war is like saying you won after 1 quarter in a football game.

well when you get the absolute :filtered: kicked out of you, lets say 100-0 after 1 quarter, I think it is pretty much fair to call the whole thing a loss. Such is the case in Vietnam.

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For cryin out loud !!

 

There was a big smiley at the bottom of my origina l post. It wasn't meant to get all the historians scrapping amongst themselves....even if that is what historians do best.

 

Someone PLEASE close my post.

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Well, better than I thought. I got to make 2 posts before someone decided the thread was SUDDENLY unfit for public consumption :lol:

 

 

 

 

edit: I deleted my posts and am slinking back to the shadows.......too many soft hearts and even softer heads about for my liking :rofl2:

Edited by Sir T Fireball

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